Author Topic: what to do next once you have idle... drivin and mapping??? (Q/A)  (Read 22901 times)

Offline damo_S13

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(made this thread for others to read and to coment on as to make sure im understand what i am being told/teached)

well as i have an s13 that now idles. it some how passed its MOT  ;D even more so that i got the s13 home and its now sat om my drive  ;D

i decided to try an drive on suday and of which make a little log... i have very little power, can just about set off in 1st and ok to drive a little in 2nd on flat land only....

From talking to rob i need a lamdba of 1 to 0.95 for part throttle, to make some power 0.85 and high boost around 0.82 to help keep egt down

Now i sent my log to rob. he says im a little rich and need a little more advance...

looking at my log my lamdba is 0.88 so i am a little rich. More advance in at low end will burn more of the fuel so you'll see the lambda drop

now i uderstand the fuel bit its the spark bit i dont understand and need help with (i can adjust the ve to get my lamdba right as i did for the idle)
 
how did rob know i needed more advance? is there a bit of basic knownlage i am missing for the base spark as you should be around 20 deg advance for part throttle or some thing?

thanks
damo
building vems 4age with itb powered corolla

Offline cliffb75

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Re: what to do next once you have idle... drivin and mapping??? (Q/A)
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2007, 10:00:56 pm »
Right then

I've made a start on the calibration guides. I am part of the way through the ignition timing one, and will post it properly when its finished. In the meantime, a shortened version to get you going.

The first thing you need to do (I assume you have) is to set up the trigger and reference properly. That means when the laptop says 0deg for ignition timing, the spark is firing at TDC. To do this you will need a clearly visible TDC mark on the front pulley and a timing light - preferably one with an adjustable advance so that you can run the engine at a sensible ignition advance, but if not then you will need to set the ignition to 0 deg. You may need to hold the revs up a bit, depending on how well your engine runs with the ignition retarded this much.

Once you have got the reference settings dialled in correctly, then you know where you stand. This is where it gets difficult. The problem with calibrating ignition advance is that there is no convenient in car sensor that you can buy (like a wideband lambda sensor  and EGT gauge for fuelling) that allows you to measure if its right or wrong. Also complicating things further is the issue of MBT or detonation limited ignition timing. Ironically, its the det limited region thats easier to set up. Some method of hearing/seeing det (det cans, knock sensor and scope/sound card etc) and you can actually find the ignition limit driving on the road (though I wouldn't recommend it - I'll come to that in a minute). However, you cannot find MBT without some kind of external torque measuring device - a braked rolling road or engine dyno in fact (well, thats not quite true, but the other methods for finding MBT are too expensive to mention here, so dyno it is  :))


The easiest way to get up and running is to swipe a map from someone else with a similar spec engine. If this has been mapped reasonably well, then it may be a good starting point for your engine too. For all engines, similar means using the same fuel type (95RON or 98RON can make up to 6 degrees difference to mapped ignition). When using a MAF based system, a similar engine means same MAF meter. When using MAP or TPS system, similar engine means (at least) similar capacity, similar compression ratio, similar cams and similar exhaust backpressure. This is because the ignition timing relies on Air mass flow, so the conversion from manifold pressure or TPS to air mass flow will depend on your engine spec - i.e. the things listed above.

So a note of caution. WHEN COPYING AN IGNITION MAP FROM ANOTHER ENGINE BE CAREFUL! If your engine flows better than the donor map engine then you will be getting a higher load for a given manifold pressure. THIS COULD LEAD TO YOU DAMAGING YOUR ENGINE If you are not extremely careful to listen for detonation.

Now you have something that runs (maybe even seems OK) its time to head off to the dyno. In order to calibrate the ignition map you need to perform spark sweeps (or loops) at fixed speed and load point. This is why you need a braked dyno e.g dyno dynamics, not an inertia type, as it will hold the engine to a fixed speed regardless of how much load (MAF, MAP or TPS are your load measurement) you put on the engine. You will also find it useful to have some kind of adjustable throttle stop (or stops) - little blocks of wood of different sizes will do - that allow you to easily hold a fixed throttle position. Once you have the car running at a fixed speed/load (start at low speed and load as its safest for the engine and will give you a feel for whats happening), you then need to sweep the ignition in 2 degree steps  and record the torque figure achieved at each value of advance. The ignition advance that gives you the highest torque is TRUE MBT. You will notice (if you plot the data) that the curve is very flat at light loads. MBT is Minimum ignition for Best Torque - i.e. it is on the retarded side of the curve. So standard practice is to then set the map value to slighly retarded of true MBT, e.g. the point at which the torque has dropped by 0.5% from peak when plotted.

Follow this process and slowly fill in the map from low speed low load working diagonally up the speed and load axes. You don't have to do every point, but since there aren't that many sites in VEMS (which is a good thing), it wouldn't take too long if you did. Your biggest problem will be aligning your data with your axis breakpoints - if you are using the 'blocks of wood' throttle stops you may need to do some interpolation (smoothing) of the data points. Excel is good for this.

At some stage you are likely to become det limited, i.e. the engine will begin to knock. Remember you need to have a knock detection system in place before you get to this point. This is most likely at low speed/high load sites, and then will decrease in strength as you increase the speed. For an engine without active knock control, I would recommend setting the ignition map to BLD - 3 degrees. BLD = Border Line Detonation, i.e. when you can hear knock occuring and a rate of 2 'pings' per second or more. So whatever ignition advance this occurs at, take 3 deg off this and enter that into the map.

Another word of warning. DETONATION IS SENSITIVE TO INLET TEMPERATURE. If you map the engine when the air is cold (i.e. in the winter) you will find it is too advanced (in the det limited region - MBT is unaffected) when the air temps get hot. If you are not using any inlet air temperature correction (which should be around 1deg retard for every 10deg increase in inlet air temp) then BE VERY CAREFUL. Turbo engines are even worse for this, particularly when people just turn up the boost and start to run off the end of the compressor map, which introduces a lot more heat to the inlet air.

So, at the end of a day on the rolling road (or maybe less if you're quick / exprienced) you should have an ignition map, and by association a fuel map (since you will have needed to be adjusting the fuel throughout in order to get the best torque / keep the EGT's at a sensible temperature). Now you can look at driveability, but we'll cover that another time maybe......

 :)


Oh and BTW, 0.88 lambda is more than a little rich. Its about the lambda for peak torque. To give a rough scale, 0.98 is a little rich. 0.95 is slightly rich, but good for driveability. 0.9 is quite rich. 0.86 is about peak torque rich for WOT. 0.8 is overfuelling for EGT's rich, 0.75 is overfuelling quite a lot for EGT's rich, and 0.7 or richer is black smoke 'I've got too high a compression ratio and i'm running massively retarded and then overfuelling ridiculously to keep the EGT's in check' rich.

Have fun  ;D

 

Offline damo_S13

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Re: what to do next once you have idle... drivin and mapping??? (Q/A)
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2007, 10:46:11 pm »
holy crap cliff  ;D thats alot of info there.... thanks you, very 8) stuff

no dyno here tho....

im going to spend most of tomorrow driving up and down my road (making logs/adjusting maps) to try make the s13 driveable ish.

i really need to run the engine in a little, im after driving to donny show and back too

thanks again
damo
building vems 4age with itb powered corolla

Offline dnb

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Re: what to do next once you have idle... drivin and mapping??? (Q/A)
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2007, 10:49:24 pm »
Very good summary there. 

How do you stand with running slightly lean on cruise?  I have to do everything I can to make a 5l v8 a sensible daily drive... ;)

Offline cliffb75

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Re: what to do next once you have idle... drivin and mapping??? (Q/A)
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2007, 11:18:14 pm »
No Worries. Like I said, I cut it down a bit for now. When the real thing is done I'll post it. :)

Not to be a party pooper, but more words of warning.

Fuelling. If its very rich it won't be doing the engine any good, especially if its not run in. With the bores being washed with extra fuel there will be little or no oil film, so they will glaze very quickly due to the localised heating. So stick a target lambda value of about 0.98 in most of the map except high loads, and let the wideband control to that. You could even try using the auto learn feature?

Ignition - you really can't do this properly without a dyno, especially from scratch. You can probably get the thing running so it feels OK, but its likely to have crap fuel economy so be prepared. If you insist on driving it a long way with slightly random numbers in it then please please be careful and don't get tempted into booting it to 'see what it can do'. It requires a lot of self discipline (trust me, I know     ;)) I'm sure I'm just telling you what you already know. :)

To give you some ballpark figures for ignition advance, Depending on your engine spec, I would expect to see around 10 in the idle region (not because it gives best torque, but to control idle speed), up to 50 degrees at high speed and low load, as little as -10 (i.e. 10 degrees after TDC) at low speed and high load and maybe 10 to 15 degrees at high speed high load. Middle speed and middle load is going to be about the 20 to 30 degrees mark I expect.

We can have a proper chat about it on Sunday if you like?


Offline cliffb75

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Re: what to do next once you have idle... drivin and mapping??? (Q/A)
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2007, 11:25:55 pm »
Very good summary there. 

How do you stand with running slightly lean on cruise?  I have to do everything I can to make a 5l v8 a sensible daily drive... ;)

We had a chat about that on the SXOC. Its not something I've ever done, but thats mainly because I work on stuff that needs to operate around lambda 1 to make the catalysts work.

From what I've learned it seems there could be some advantage to it for cruise. My concern would be keeping the driveability, which would require an aggressive tip in fuelling strategy to ensure you don't go too lean as you open the throttle.

For the couple of SVA only projects I've done, I set the taget lambda at 1,02 on the light load lines, but 1.00 for the cruise sites. Would be willing to experiment though  :)

Personally (and it's going to start sounding like a crusade soon  ;D) I'd say getting the ignition map set up properly on the rolling road is going to give you the biggest benefits in terms of fuel economy, by making sure you make the most of the fuel you are burning. 

Offline damo_S13

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Re: what to do next once you have idle... drivin and mapping??? (Q/A)
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2007, 11:56:03 pm »
No Worries. Like I said, I cut it down a bit for now. When the real thing is done I'll post it. :)

Not to be a party pooper, but more words of warning.

Fuelling. If its very rich it won't be doing the engine any good, especially if its not run in. With the bores being washed with extra fuel there will be little or no oil film, so they will glaze very quickly due to the localised heating. So stick a target lambda value of about 0.98 in most of the map except high loads, and let the wideband control to that. You could even try using the auto learn feature?

Ignition - you really can't do this properly without a dyno, especially from scratch. You can probably get the thing running so it feels OK, but its likely to have crap fuel economy so be prepared. If you insist on driving it a long way with slightly random numbers in it then please please be careful and don't get tempted into booting it to 'see what it can do'. It requires a lot of self discipline (trust me, I know     ;)) I'm sure I'm just telling you what you already know. :)

To give you some ballpark figures for ignition advance, Depending on your engine spec, I would expect to see around 10 in the idle region (not because it gives best torque, but to control idle speed), up to 50 degrees at high speed and low load, as little as -10 (i.e. 10 degrees after TDC) at low speed and high load and maybe 10 to 15 degrees at high speed high load. Middle speed and middle load is going to be about the 20 to 30 degrees mark I expect.

We can have a proper chat about it on Sunday if you like?

well im not to fused about using fuel to start with (as long as i dont kill the lamdba sensor) donnington is not to far from me. M1 jnc35 to M1 jnc24

sounds like a good idea about the talk  ;D  i have been thinking about using the auto tune feature need to read a little more about it 1st

thanks
damo
building vems 4age with itb powered corolla

Offline dnb

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Re: what to do next once you have idle... drivin and mapping??? (Q/A)
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2007, 12:37:15 am »
Very good summary there. 

How do you stand with running slightly lean on cruise?  I have to do everything I can to make a 5l v8 a sensible daily drive... ;)

We had a chat about that on the SXOC. Its not something I've ever done, but thats mainly because I work on stuff that needs to operate around lambda 1 to make the catalysts work.

From what I've learned it seems there could be some advantage to it for cruise. My concern would be keeping the driveability, which would require an aggressive tip in fuelling strategy to ensure you don't go too lean as you open the throttle.

For the couple of SVA only projects I've done, I set the taget lambda at 1,02 on the light load lines, but 1.00 for the cruise sites. Would be willing to experiment though  :)

Personally (and it's going to start sounding like a crusade soon  ;D) I'd say getting the ignition map set up properly on the rolling road is going to give you the biggest benefits in terms of fuel economy, by making sure you make the most of the fuel you are burning. 

Not a crusade at all.  I had the benefit of being able to profile my dizzy with VEMS to get me a pretty good timing map to start with, and this gave as good a fuel economy as it always did.  I then tweaked the timing  around the areas I knew (from det cans) it needed adjustment.  The dyno session is planned for when the engine is back together and there's a car to put it in!

I didn't have cats when I did the lean burn testing so I thought it was worth a go.  The result from cruising the M6 in moderate to heavy traffic was 30 mpg.  Lambda target was 1.05, and as long as you didn't breath on the accelerator it settled nicely.

It's a big lazy v8, so tip in strategy seems to work best when it's agressive anyway.  Would love to hear your comments about it when it's back together!

Offline dnb

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Re: what to do next once you have idle... drivin and mapping??? (Q/A)
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2007, 12:41:03 am »


well im not to fused about using fuel to start with (as long as i dont kill the lamdba sensor) donnington is not to far from me. M1 jnc35 to M1 jnc24

sounds like a good idea about the talk  ;D  i have been thinking about using the auto tune feature need to read a little more about it 1st

thanks
damo


Auto tune is good, but use it with caution.  Don't let it mess with your idle settings or it'll clobber them as the engine starts to heat soak.  The areas it can learn are controlled only by the areas of map you select to be closed loop - you can't have closed loop without autolearn when auto learn is enabled.
This is also true of very light loads and low to mid RPM. 

Other than that, it works supurbly.  For best results, I found that you had to hold the car in a map cell for a couple of seconds so the learning algorithm could get sufficient samples built up to change the map. 

Offline [email protected]

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Re: what to do next once you have idle... drivin and mapping??? (Q/A)
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2007, 10:21:43 am »
Can you post up a screen shot of your Auto-learn settings please?

Offline cliffb75

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Re: what to do next once you have idle... drivin and mapping??? (Q/A)
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2007, 08:32:05 pm »
Just dug back through the old SXOC posts to find this (bit of a rip, so don't be surprised if it sounds a bit odd  ;D).



Firstly an ignition efficiency curve:

So, if you were to perform a spark sweep with everything else fixed (speed, throttle position, lambda, inlet temperatures etc) this would be the resulting torque as a percentage of the maximum torque seen at that condition. The generic curve is produce by running spark sweeps at a large number of speeds, loads etc and then taking the average. In a modern EMS this curve is then used as part of the torque control system to help control the engine during torque down requests (e.g. auto trans gearshift), idle and so on.

So the point at which you get the most torque is MBT. This is the ignition timing we are aiming for over most of the map. But at higher loads towards WOT, or for lower RON fuels, higher inlet temps etc we run into knock before we are able to reach the MBT point. This is known as being 'det limited'. The retard angle at which det begins is entirely dependant on the factors mentioned. Cooler inlet temps will mean you are less det limited, which is a major reason why big, efficient intrcoolers improve performance. Higher RON fuels will also mean you are less det limited, which is why you map on the fuel you intend to run. But for our stuff which doesn't have active knock control, be realistic - if you are normally going to use 95RON and drive it through the summer then get it mapped in that condition. Yes you will be able to get a lot more torque and power by mapping it on 100RON and running with freezing cold air blasting into the inlet, but if you map it to that then the first time it gets really hot and you've filled it with 95RON then its meltdown time :cry: Of course this is where having a manifold temp sensor and a correction strategy comes in, so you can map it for best performance at all inlet temps, and switchable maps for different fuel grades :)

I've also added an example of EGT increase with retard from BLD. This will be dependant on how det limited you are. The curve shape is a bit like the inverse of the efficiency map (not a surprise really), so the further from MBT you are the greater the temp increase. Those numbers are NOT generic though so make sure you measure it yourself.

Next a lambda efficiency curve:


Same idea only I have plotted it as it would be used in the EMS - i.e. lambda 1 = 100% efficiency. Thats because lambda 1 is seen as the standard condition, as you need to run there for the catalyst to operate.

As I said, I've never worked on a vehicle that has deliberately run lean of lambda 1. Normally I can tolerate up to 1.1 during an aggressive transient, but only momentarily.

In normal part load running we target lambda 1. At low speeds and WOT, where the exhaust gas temps are stilll below target (about 950C pre-turbo, 800ish C post turbo) we target LBT, which is about 0.86. The target lambda will be blended smoothly but quickly across a couple of sites to avoid too aggresive a change. As the speed increases along the WOT line then we will become temperature limited, and then more fuel is added to stay below the temp limits already mentioned. But beware. The rich misfire limit for most engines is round the 0.65 lambda mark. If you are trying to run mega boost on a car that has too high a CR you can reach this limit. And since most wideband lambda sensors are not accurate below about 0.8 lambda (without specific calibration), you can't necessarily rely on them to tell you when you are getting close. You may also find that there may be some benefit to running even richer than the temp limit in order to reduce det, allowing a bit more spark advance, but without a dyno to measure the tradeoff you won't be sure if you are getting a real torque benefit or just p!ssing fuel down the exhaust :)

And just to be clear (at the risk of being patronising) this is AFR we are talking about, not the injector flow limit. All this stuff assumes you have injectors that are capable of supplying enough fuel, and putting in bigger injectors will not help the problem. You either need to reduce the load (less boost), reduce the knock (higher RON fuel and/or better intercooler) or reduce the compression ratio.

Try getting hold of a few books on the subject of how engines work, and build up from the basics. You'll find the basic principle is not really too complex, but its the application and optimisation of the theory thats difficult, and then doing that in an efficient and cost effective way that is clever!

Phew! anyone still reading this..........:no:

Offline [email protected]

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Re: what to do next once you have idle... drivin and mapping??? (Q/A)
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2007, 11:38:28 pm »
Phew! anyone still reading this..........:no:

Yes.

Offline damo_S13

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Re: what to do next once you have idle... drivin and mapping??? (Q/A)
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2007, 08:55:29 am »
i have read it but not sure if i understand it all lol  ;D

damo
building vems 4age with itb powered corolla

Offline Denmark

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Re: what to do next once you have idle... drivin and mapping??? (Q/A)
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2007, 08:44:57 pm »
(made this thread for others to read and to coment on as to make sure im understand what i am being told/teached)

well as i have an s13 that now idles. it some how passed its MOT  ;D even more so that i got the s13 home and its now sat om my drive  ;D

i decided to try an drive on suday and of which make a little log... i have very little power, can just about set off in 1st and ok to drive a little in 2nd on flat land only....

From talking to rob i need a lamdba of 1 to 0.95 for part throttle, to make some power 0.85 and high boost around 0.82 to help keep egt down

Now i sent my log to rob. he says im a little rich and need a little more advance...

looking at my log my lamdba is 0.88 so i am a little rich. More advance in at low end will burn more of the fuel so you'll see the lambda drop

now i uderstand the fuel bit its the spark bit i dont understand and need help with (i can adjust the ve to get my lamdba right as i did for the idle)
 
how did rob know i needed more advance? is there a bit of basic knownlage i am missing for the base spark as you should be around 20 deg advance for part throttle or some thing?

thanks
damo


This is a pretty good "start up" ignition calculator
http://www.powerpage.dk/tuning_ignition-filer/Ignition_timing_konfigurator_opstartsmap_v106.xls


Regards,
Skassa
working on the boxer

Offline Denmark

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Re: what to do next once you have idle... drivin and mapping??? (Q/A)
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2007, 04:07:58 pm »
Have anyone tried that calculator?

I think its strange that there is no comments to it  :)


/Skassa
working on the boxer