VEMS Community Forum
Members => Projects & Installs => Topic started by: DevInAz on July 15, 2012, 05:31:29 am
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hello all,
i have a new project. Here's whats been done so far:
Bought a 91 525 through a local auction. Pulled the engine and installed the following:
ARP headstuds
MLS .140
60 lbs Siemens Deka injectors
new main and rod bearing
New seals for the engine - 180K on the original motor. We did not rebuild the head or install new rings
618 pressure plate with stock disc
stock 260 trans is being used
E34 wiring harness
Vems 3.6 - Ordered this before we had the engine - should have ordered a VR secondary sensor and not the HALL it came with. I need to figure out how to switch the VEMS to Hall.
Agency Power blow off valve
Tial 44mm Vband
3.25 diff - I'm looking for a LSD for it but we can't find one for a good price right now.
New A/C compressor with Parallel flow condenser - Custom A/C lines to route around the turbo
Agency Power Manual boost controller - ball and spring style - very solid boost levels with this setup
Stock COP - using waste spark in dual out mode - I think this is one of my misfire problems - I'll play with this tomorrow
Full 3inch with Magnaflow center to center 18in muffler and 24in resonator
NGK 4091's gapped down to .018 from the .030 when new
2 Aux fans - 1 to take over the A/C fan which is wired to the fan temp switch in the radiator and when A/C turns on. The other is powered by a stepper driver through the factory fan high speed relay. In one of the pictures it shows the 12v signal wire for the high speed fan I tapped into. No diode is being used right now but I think I should install one to prevent stepper driver damage.
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Donor Car. We took its heart.
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We installed a dynojet wideband to double check the readings of our VEMS wideband, they were spot on. We are trying to figure out a misfire issue when the coils warm up.
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TODO list:
figure out misfire -- ignition related i'm sure
convert secondary trigger from HALL to VR - need to search the Wiki still
configure vehilce speed sensor
Post log and config for others
Configure full sequential and turn off dual out mode - I think this is part of my misfire under boost conditions.
https://www.box.com/s/c2e7d894469870286aee
https://www.box.com/s/c1477185e0c66b3e79b5
https://www.box.com/s/0299518b4dae548fa59c
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Check the coils for cracks, this is common on BMW COP's. Also make sure you don't over-dwell them, 3 ms is more than enough for them, I usually run those at 2.5 ms.
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Check the coils for cracks, this is common on BMW COP's. Also make sure you don't over-dwell them, 3 ms is more than enough for them, I usually run those at 2.5 ms.
Will do. I just installed new coil boots and my dwell timing is 2.5ms.
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EDIT: Removed the board modification info. decided to stick with a hall sensor.
Ran 3 new wires for Cam hall sensor.
5v power from board
Ground
Signal
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Here are my latest files:
Log - https://www.box.com/s/5a85c0df2ceca0a52b63
trigger log - https://www.box.com/s/b53c30ca8925f9af09a3
config - https://www.box.com/s/f913c9707e9e98622cd6
The vehicle is driving really smooth for having a 30 min tune session. accel enrichments and all my cranking tables need work.
timing is heavily retarded but its going to the dyno tomorrow.
I'm getting some secondary trigger errors. I'll have to dig into that later.
Even though the vehicle is full sequential now i've left my injection trim at 720 since i'm not sure how to tune it or a decent base line.
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Went to the dyno last night. It wasn't as good as I was hoping for but we will make a few changes and go back at it.
Max hp was 304 at 10psi. The car didn't like more than 18 degrees of timing. After working up to 19 degrees we lost a few foot pounds of torque and backed the timing back down. i'm guessing because of the small turbo it has a too much back pressure. On the flip side it makes daily driving fantastic!
I'd really like to get this car as close to 400 as possible. I know the motor can take it but i'm not sure the turbo is up to the task. We shall see.
Log: https://www.box.com/s/7242e5198d696610632e
Also my fuel pump from a 04 ford cobra isn't holding up. I'll be installing a walboro 255 to fix my VE table from climbing through the roof.
here is my new config with a fixed idle. PID control enabled with ignition advance. I wish I could say my start up times were spot on. my cranking times still need a good amount of work.
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You have to rise boost for achieving 400hp.
If your EGT sensor is mounted somewhere between engine and turbo and extended more than 10mm deep in flow you are way below turbine max flow. Also duty cycle graph tells same.
This engine do not want lot of advance. 18deg sounds reasonable.
Gints
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Hey Gints,
Your right the EGT is about 1 foot off the 6 cyl runner from the head to the turbo. The sensor is pushed into the runner about 2cm in the stream.
I'm searching for a fuel pump in town right now to fix that problem.
We are having trouble with hot restarts. I'm going to try turning my cranking VE percent down to 50 or 40 and use the cranking enrichment table to smooth it out.
My PW for 77C starts are at %100 and it still doesn't like to start when warm until we floor the gas pedal.
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Usually weird VE value at hot start is caused by improper injector lag time and simultaneous injection what multiplies the error by cylinder count.
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I contacted fiveomotorsport.com to find out my injector settings. They don't understand some of the terms that VEMS uses in the menus but are going to do some research since this info isn't produced for the consumer by siemens.
These injectors are 60lbs Siemens Deka injectors. I love how smooth these injectors are and five O has been very helpful!
Specifications:
Coil Resistance: 12.5 Ohms / High Impedance / High-Z (No ECM driver modifications required)
Static Flow Rate @ 43.5PSI ( 300kPa ) w/Gas: 60 lb/hr = 630 cc/min = 453 g/min
Static Flow Rate @ 87PSI ( 600kPa ) w/Gas: 85.7 lb/hr = 900 cc/min = 648 g/min
Gain: 0.11ms/mg
Offset: 0.055ms
Turn on time @ 14VDC: 1.14ms
Turn off time: 0.85ms @ 600KPa
Connector: Bosch EV1
Series: DEKA 4 ( DEKA IV )
Lag info from http://injector-rehab.com/kbse/lag.htm
V ms
10v 0.83
11v 0.64
12v 0.50
13v 0.38
14v 0.28
15v 0.17
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Awesome man!
You do quick work...Thanks for sharing. Any reason the sideskirts are on backwards? 8)
Have you tried switching back to dual out to check hot starts?
I have US S50 and couldn't for the life of me get it to sync very fast. How is it going for you in this realm? (My full sequential worked, but was painstakingly slow? So opted for dual out -to fires up fast(er) than stock dme!)
Build looks great! I seem to see more like 20-21the degrees under boost at peak torque, silly question I'm sure but have you verified/strobed timing?
Keep us updated!
Also, thanks for injector info...If you hear more please update (I have same injectors on my turbo build but have yet to complete it/fire it up)
Also RE: coil dwell, I just saw a post by gunni over on bimmerforums saying when he scoped he found that it takes bremi coils 4.5 ms :o to fully charge (maybe i misinterpreted and hopefully he'll chime in to clarify because I, like you and others run 2.6 as per a number of forum recommendations). Did you sort out your your misfire? What's your plug gap?
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Awesome man!
You do quick work...Thanks for sharing. Any reason the sideskirts are on backwards? 8)
Have you tried switching back to dual out to check hot starts?
I have US S50 and couldn't for the life of me get it to sync very fast. How is it going for you in this realm? (My full sequential worked, but was painstakingly slow? So opted for dual out -to fires up fast(er) than stock dme!)
Build looks great! I seem to see more like 20-21the degrees under boost at peak torque, silly question I'm sure but have you verified/strobed timing?
Keep us updated!
Also, thanks for injector info...If you hear more please update (I have same injectors on my turbo build but have yet to complete it/fire it up)
Also RE: coil dwell, I just saw a post by gunni over on bimmerforums saying when he scoped he found that it takes bremi coils 4.5 ms :o to fully charge (maybe i misinterpreted and hopefully he'll chime in to clarify because I, like you and others run 2.6 as per a number of forum recommendations). Did you sort out your your misfire? What's your plug gap?
Thanks! thats funny I have never noticed the side skirts. I just walked out front and looked at a e36 m3 and your right! Oh well I don't think the customer cares.
The sequential is VERY slow! I wish it wasn't but i've gone back and forth over everything including the injector info like Gints suggested. This did help with the start up problem but it still takes awhile to start. I've never had this problem with my other VEMS cars but none of them are full sequential.
my Base timing is dead on. I think my small turbo is causing the problem for this boost level. I'll be putting in a 15psi spring set and our manual boost controller can step it up from there. I called a turbo shop and told them what i'm doing, they recommended a t3/t04b. Since it was inexpensive I went with there suggestion and installed it when it came in. It would explain the lack of volume the turbo is producing at 10 psi and also the low power output. I should have done my own research! a t3/to4e - 60 would have been the perfect size for what this car is used for.
I would love to scope out the coils to figure it out myself but I don't have a scope.
Joof did you have trigger errors at low RPM levels? like around 1500 or so? I really need to get a scope so I can measure all of this...
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Joof did you have trigger errors at low RPM levels? like around 1500 or so? I really need to get a scope so I can measure all of this...
I never had an issue with trigger errors; honestly I've since reverted back to dual out, more reliable and full sync isn't really necessary on these (other than the cool factor I suppose?). Until camsync can measure rotation/placement in cycle I don't see it being worth it but that's just me...Maybe something with your shield wire is causing sync to fall out? (unlikely though). Does the cam tooth "race" with the missing tooth off the primary trigger?
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It is very close to over lapping. I'll post a trigger log. Tell me what you think.
The reason I went with full seq is because the coils kept miss firing like they were being over heated. Its possible all the coils are just old and are failing but since I've setup the cam sync the misfire on boost is gone and the vehicle runs very smooth.
trigger log - https://www.box.com/s/b53c30ca8925f9af09a3
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I'm no professional, but 2 teeth before missing gap...maybe that is part of the problem.
What are your primary trigger settings? (ref tooth, etc?)
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You have a good point. Right now my TDC after trigger is set to 60 and my first trigger tooth is 0.
I'll try and change my first trigger tooth to 4 and adjust my TDC after trigger to 60. That should take care of it.
Thanks for pointing that out!
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Why you have TDC after the trigger at 0 degrees? If you have stock BMW 60-2 trigger wheel then it should be 84 degrees BTDC when trigger tooth is set to 0 or 72 degrees if you have set the trigger tooth to 2 which is recommended as the trigger tooth is real tooth then not missing tooth.
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IMHO tooth #0 is first real tooth after missing.
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Why you have TDC after the trigger at 0 degrees? If you have stock BMW 60-2 trigger wheel then it should be 84 degrees BTDC when trigger tooth is set to 0 or 72 degrees if you have set the trigger tooth to 2 which is recommended as the trigger tooth is real tooth then not missing tooth.
I didn't realize I created a problem by doing this. I don't have the car right now but I'll change it to 2nd tooth and set the base timing.
Thanks guys for the input!
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Update on this project:
Old m50 engine was pulled out. S52 engine was installed back into the car with the matching transmission. MLS .140 head gasket with ARP studs were installed. The rest of the engine is stock for the time being. The turbo was replaced with a GT3582r.
Everything else was reused on the car. The car is now running pretty good except a few small problems. It has a extensive cranking delay before the engine will start. I've uploaded a few files to the sharing center here: http://vems.hu/vemstune/sharingcenter/reports.php?cmd=view&key=v102RO
Can someone take a look and see if there is something I can do to make the car start faster?
VEMS 3.6 now has firmware 1.2.6 loaded into it.
I'll upload some pictures.
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Hall effect cam sensor should be set to falling edge.
That S52 must haul pretty well in an E30.
I don´t see any outputs for the vanos, are you not using it?
Do you have a log of the car cranking over and starting? and a triggerlog of the same while ecu maintains connection to laptop?
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When I set the cam to falling edge it doesn't run. I'll look into this.
Vanos isn't hooked up. I've run the wires but haven't plugged them in. I need to move the fuel pump relay to a P259 to free up a ignition driver. I'll do this in the next few days.
This little e30 is awesome to drive! Everything on the car works perfect too, like A/C which is needed in the summer.
I've never been able to get the laptop to stay connected when cranking. It always cuts out. I've never really looked into this.
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I can see from the log that your having problems with the cams position, i.e. it´s swapping between 300something degrees and sub 10deg, the ecu isn´t setup to understand that kind of behaviour.
I´d run it fully wasted spark.
It´s normal for the ecu to drop out as where it gets it´s power is kinda late in the line of supply from the battery.
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I was thinking about the cam set as rising instead of falling. I'm going to try and change the cam sync to falling and move the coils in the same order just back three positions. i'll play with this in a few days and see what happens.
I'd rather not get rid of cam sync because I've had issues with these coils cutting out when they get warm. I'll keep this in mind though if I can't figure out the long crank. The car takes about 2.5 seconds of cranking for it to fire up but it runs perfect. I get zero trigger errors and it pulls nice and smooth
I won't worry about the computer cutting out at this point.
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Well I tried a few things to fix the long crank but was unsuccessful.
I've since changed the car back to wasted spark. The car starts much faster now than it did.
I'll be hooking up the vanos tomorrow... Does the vanos need a cam sensor for it to actuate? I was looking at the latest vems tables and saw that there is a degree table for cam adjustment. Since the sensor is disconnected how will this change things?
Does anyone use a MISC output with a IGN driver to run the vanos? or should I stick with the camshaft angle control?
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Unless you've got something more interesting, a M50 VANOS is simple on/off, so a MISC output using an ignition channel is perfect.
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I use a misc output with ign driver to run vanos.
Are you still on firmware 1.2.6? My car is in pieces right now but I'm hoping the newer (1.2.10?) fixes the slow cam sync as I seem to recall reading something about improvements here on the firmware page.
Just et up your thresholds in the misc out and all is well.
Are you using a different mat sensor than bmw closed element type? (Just curious)
Are you using stock 3 wire ICV? When it is quite warm out and A/C is on I have trouble keeping the car from stalling when clutch-in from higher revs; My IAC settings are obviously the culprit but would love to eliminate the stall. Are the files in the file center the latest?
Thanks!
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Hi Joof,
yes i'm still on the same firmware. I've also read about improvements but I haven't noticed any when cranking. After a 4 second crank time the car runs great, but the initial crank time is terrible.
I'm using a stock closed element IAT. It has a slower reaction time but I haven't noticed any problems with it. I'll post up my latest dyno sheet and logs.
The car is using the 3 wire ICV. Its stock. I don't have any stalling problems with this setup. The only time it use to stall is when it would get secondary trigger errors. I'll post up all my latest files some time this week. If you need them sooner than email me and i'll send them over. [email protected]
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Ah good deal. I just saw this and sent you an email.
Thanks!