VEMS Community Forum
Members => Projects & Installs => Topic started by: AVP on May 08, 2009, 01:11:53 pm
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Well i finally got my hands on the unit from Marc(thanks)
came with a base map and settings to start with, wide band bosch and EGT sensor.Also he prepared me the diode mode to play with for idle settings.
Going to install the wideband this weekend and make the connections and start the car.
here is a photo of the new vs old ECU.It has the 1.1.44 software version in so hopefully once the new versions are in good working order i will upgrade as they go along. For now,after reading through how megatune works (although being completelly ignorant of these things as my profession is a doctor) i managed to understand most of it so hopefully i will get the rest of the help from this forum!!
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/vasp3690/IMG_1051.jpg)
Will post vids/photos/logs as they come along
Vasilis
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Install the wideband last thing of all, best to do it when the car is idling, they are robust little units but do not like unburnt fuel.
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Hello,
congratulations to your Vems!
Do you have the 1.1.44 firmware and all the config files on the hard drive of an Audi S2 / RS2?
Is that with the 16x14 maps?
I drive the 1.1.27 on my Vems with an Audi S2 ABY.
And I would like my Vems update on the 16x14 maps.
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i was told to install the wide band as it is and fire it up. I have also fitted the wideband in a distant location from the turbo at least 30-40cm
i have the 1.1.44 but 12x12 tables
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i was wondering today....
i know that with VEMS the board computer that tells you the fuel efficiency/economy does not work(yet). But when you put it on instant consumption it basically gets a reading from the throttle body and it reflects how heavy your foot is.
Is it possible to just feed that information to VEMS and reflect it on the board computer screen somehow,even if it reads the actual TB angle,so that you have some instant information there anyway?
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going to install VEMS tomorrow!! yeah!
i think another very usefull feature to use in the future versions would be a simple way to add or retract advance in the spark table depending on IATs. I know it already has a curve of ignition retard depended on IAT, but if you use NOS or water/methanol (on/off) it would be a good and convenient way to be able to do this thing on it's own and become more aggresive if needed.
another thing i have noticed is that my fueling map on my current eproms seems to be most of the time on the stoich side and only during the high boost/high kPa is becoming increasingly rich... however most of the maps i have seen laying around are on the richer side most of the time.
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VEMS is on and operational
however it seems that although idle is fine, with settings on cold 1100C and 950C when warm(after 56C) it seems to be holding on at 1100C all the time.
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i also noticed on datalogging that in some instances, even with TB closed, i would get some sky rocketing high lamda measurements,without any insight of knock or EGT rise. When i say high i mean as much as 42.5 lamda once!
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Is this when you are idling?
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yes
i think it is related to when i give the gas pedal a tap and then it closes down. Is it just the fact that the injectors shut and you get more air in?
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That's the fuel cut coming in.
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issues:
1) Idle still stays up even after altering the settings on idle.I
thought i would change the TB damper.Maybe it is too much forward
located. Also On motronic the TB angle is 9.8 on closed throttle.Maybe
that has something to do with it... Any calibration methods from tps?
2) EGTs on warm engine stays @ 580 on hotside,which is quite high,esp.
when concidering that on 900rpm on motronic is 520-530. It could be
related with the fact that the idle is 1100 instead.
3) there is a problem with the accel.pedal When changing gear and on
startup, it seems to become quite rich and for a second the car
stumbles. then once the revs build up it goes better.
4) in general EGTs when on normal driving are a tad higher than normal
for lamda = 1 to 1.02 etc. so im thinking that i should reduce the
ignition timing a bit. what do you think?
how can i post my xls files?
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1) Idle still stays up even after altering the settings on idle.I
thought i would change the TB damper.Maybe it is too much forward
located. Also On motronic the TB angle is 9.8 on closed throttle.Maybe
that has something to do with it... Any calibration methods from tps?
Is there any difference in idle speed if you disconnect the IACV?
2) EGTs on warm engine stays @ 580 on hotside,which is quite high,esp.
when concidering that on 900rpm on motronic is 520-530. It could be
related with the fact that the idle is 1100 instead.
50deg is not a huge amount - are you using the same EGT meter to test this?
3) there is a problem with the accel.pedal When changing gear and on
startup, it seems to become quite rich and for a second the car
stumbles. then once the revs build up it goes better.
This is acceleration enrichment, and will need tuning.
4) in general EGTs when on normal driving are a tad higher than normal
for lamda = 1 to 1.02 etc. so im thinking that i should reduce the
ignition timing a bit. what do you think?
Retarded ignition results in higher EGTs, you really need to start tuning and see what the differences are.
how can i post my xls files?
http://195.159.109.134/vemsuk/forum/index.php/topic,113.0.html
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1) My idle is ignition based so the ISV valve is disabled is that is what you mean
2) this is measured with the same EGT sensor on the turbo hotside. The EGT that goes to VEMS is further back and im still trying to compare values. i get from 200 to 150C difference so far
3)when you do have that symptom, what is the first thing to change?
4) my timing map is quite high on most areas.Is it possible to have gone to the other side?
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/vasp3690/sparktable.jpg)
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If the idle is ignition based then its going to retard a lot and that will increase the EGTs.
Tuning acceleration enrichment is tricky to describe - hopefully someone else may try to give it a shot.
You need to start looking at the datalogs and seeing the effects that changing the enrichment amounts, nothing beats experimentation and learning from the data.
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can you explain to me why it is going to retard a lot for ignition based timing?
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in the acceleration amount values, is it the higher the number = the more fuel is added on pressing the accelerator pedal?
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im going to try to recalibrate the TPS as well today and if idle does not respond i may go for the IAC/diode solution and play around with those settings.
i have noticed also that when stationary and on idle, if i press the accelerator and release it, that is also when the small dip in revs as well as 'missfire' like feeling is there. On datalogging i think it gets too lean on that time.I get lamda values of 1.5 something. So which way should i change the acceleration enrichment table to compensate?
here are some more tables:
here on the accel.enrichment the accel amoun (0) was 0.7 and i have used 0.3 but havent tried it yet.
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/vasp3690/accelerenrich.jpg)
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/vasp3690/idlesettings1.jpg)
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/vasp3690/idlesettings2.jpg)
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/vasp3690/lamdatable.jpg)
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can you explain to me why it is going to retard a lot for ignition based timing?
If the current RPM is higher than target then the ignition based idle will retard in order to reduce the engine speed.
in the acceleration amount values, is it the higher the number = the more fuel is added on pressing the accelerator pedal?
Acceleration Bins is how quickly the pedal is pressed, and the Acceleration Amount is the length of time added to the injector's PW to add more fuel.
The recommended Acceleration Bins values are:
- (dv/dt) 1
[1](dv/dt) 5
[2](dv/dt) 20
[3](dv/dt) 40
im going to try to recalibrate the TPS as well today and if idle does not respond i may go for the IAC/diode solution and play around with those settings.
TPS calibration is never a bad thing to do, although unless the TPS is over 2% (look at: Extras->Idle Settings and you'll see that TPS value for idle threshold(%) is set to 2)
calibrating it will not have any effect. It should be 0% when the throttle is resting on the throttle stop.
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right,
after calibration tps off was : 0 and TPS WOT was 255. So i entered those values on the basic settings screen.
today i tried the idle settings of the diode,but again i could not get the damn idle to settle @ 900 or 800rpm. Also when i turned the advance based idle off, it still didnt do much. On my spark table on idle i get the 2nd bin lighting up where i have 30.75 advance angle and that makes the idle with around 20deg. of advance as it sits between 700 and 1200rpm. However when i reduce that value to 18.75 for example i do get the idle to sit lower, BUT i get higher EGT on that setting.
Now how can i actually get the idle to listen to the commands i set???
I also made the change on the acceleration bins,
tell me something: is the highest the number, the faster the acceleration pedal responce? is that how it goes?
Also, is there any correspondence among the 4 bins and 4 accel.amounts? would the value of the 1st bin correspond to the value of the 1st accel.amount?
I managed anyway to get it a bit better on soft pedal depression,but on gear change,it still bumps no matter what numbers i have tried,
i also noticed that with the pedal depression on idle and stationary, while making those changes, it seems that EGTs are getting quite lower, which is not something that is happening with the motronic on similar circomstances!
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Those numbers sound incorrect to me, have a read of this:
http://195.159.109.134/vemsuk/forum/index.php/topic,600.0.html
Is the throttle properly closed, or is it open a bit? If its open, with the best will in the world you're not going to a low idle, if there is an idle adjustment screw you should:
Ensure that the ICV is closed.
Turn off the ignition based idle.
Reduce the idle speed using the adjustment screw.
This will then make cold idling difficult as the engine will not rev high enough - so you'd then need to get the ICV working properly.
Until you have the TPS spot-on you'll not be able to get the acceleration enrichment even close.
When you map the car you dont want acceleration enrichment on anyway.
Tuning is a very complex subject because of the huge number of variables that are in play, don't underestimate the amount of learning and experimenting that you'll need to do.
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the issue here is the fact that the throttle body has not been tampered with or altered in any way from factory. So to have the screw altered should not be the solution, since others that have been using VEMS on 20V 5cylinder turbo engines, never had to go through that procedure themselves to achieve good idle.
When the throttle is completelly closed, it clicks.That is how motronic understands and receives that information to control idle.However on VAGCOM with closed throttle you always get a reading of 8 deg. angle for some reason, without that interfereing with how idle is managed by motronic.
Initially, mark had used numbers 23 and 240 for TPS. Calibration gave me 0 and 255. So why would those 2 numbers from calibrations be wrong?
on idle and on main screen the TPS gauge shows 0. ISnt that what it should show?
here is also a config file i have.im not sure if this was done when i did the calibration:
MegaTune-generated Linear Throttle Calibration
; Written on 2009-05-15T18:57:42+01:00
;
; Low ADC = 0 High ADC = 255
;
THROTTLEFACTOR:
; ADC
DB 0T ; 0
DB 0T ; 1
DB 0T ; 2
DB 1T ; 3
DB 1T ; 4
DB 1T ; 5
DB 2T ; 6
DB 2T ; 7
DB 3T ; 8
DB 3T ; 9
DB 3T ; 10
DB 4T ; 11
DB 4T ; 12
DB 5T ; 13
DB 5T ; 14
DB 5T ; 15
DB 6T ; 16
DB 6T ; 17
DB 7T ; 18
DB 7T ; 19
DB 7T ; 20
DB 8T ; 21
DB 8T ; 22
DB 9T ; 23
DB 9T ; 24
DB 9T ; 25
DB 10T ; 26
DB 10T ; 27
DB 10T ; 28
DB 11T ; 29
DB 11T ; 30
DB 12T ; 31
DB 12T ; 32
DB 12T ; 33
DB 13T ; 34
DB 13T ; 35
DB 14T ; 36
DB 14T ; 37
DB 14T ; 38
DB 15T ; 39
DB 15T ; 40
DB 16T ; 41
DB 16T ; 42
DB 16T ; 43
DB 17T ; 44
DB 17T ; 45
DB 18T ; 46
DB 18T ; 47
DB 18T ; 48
DB 19T ; 49
DB 19T ; 50
DB 20T ; 51
DB 20T ; 52
DB 20T ; 53
DB 21T ; 54
DB 21T ; 55
DB 21T ; 56
DB 22T ; 57
DB 22T ; 58
DB 23T ; 59
DB 23T ; 60
DB 23T ; 61
DB 24T ; 62
DB 24T ; 63
DB 25T ; 64
DB 25T ; 65
DB 25T ; 66
DB 26T ; 67
DB 26T ; 68
DB 27T ; 69
DB 27T ; 70
DB 27T ; 71
DB 28T ; 72
DB 28T ; 73
DB 29T ; 74
DB 29T ; 75
DB 29T ; 76
DB 30T ; 77
DB 30T ; 78
DB 30T ; 79
DB 31T ; 80
DB 31T ; 81
DB 32T ; 82
DB 32T ; 83
DB 32T ; 84
DB 33T ; 85
DB 33T ; 86
DB 34T ; 87
DB 34T ; 88
DB 34T ; 89
DB 35T ; 90
DB 35T ; 91
DB 36T ; 92
DB 36T ; 93
DB 36T ; 94
DB 37T ; 95
DB 37T ; 96
DB 38T ; 97
DB 38T ; 98
DB 38T ; 99
DB 39T ; 100
DB 39T ; 101
DB 40T ; 102
DB 40T ; 103
DB 40T ; 104
DB 41T ; 105
DB 41T ; 106
DB 41T ; 107
DB 42T ; 108
DB 42T ; 109
DB 43T ; 110
DB 43T ; 111
DB 43T ; 112
DB 44T ; 113
DB 44T ; 114
DB 45T ; 115
DB 45T ; 116
DB 45T ; 117
DB 46T ; 118
DB 46T ; 119
DB 47T ; 120
DB 47T ; 121
DB 47T ; 122
DB 48T ; 123
DB 48T ; 124
DB 49T ; 125
DB 49T ; 126
DB 49T ; 127
DB 50T ; 128
DB 50T ; 129
DB 50T ; 130
DB 51T ; 131
DB 51T ; 132
DB 52T ; 133
DB 52T ; 134
DB 52T ; 135
DB 53T ; 136
DB 53T ; 137
DB 54T ; 138
DB 54T ; 139
DB 54T ; 140
DB 55T ; 141
DB 55T ; 142
DB 56T ; 143
DB 56T ; 144
DB 56T ; 145
DB 57T ; 146
DB 57T ; 147
DB 58T ; 148
DB 58T ; 149
DB 58T ; 150
DB 59T ; 151
DB 59T ; 152
DB 60T ; 153
DB 60T ; 154
DB 60T ; 155
DB 61T ; 156
DB 61T ; 157
DB 61T ; 158
DB 62T ; 159
DB 62T ; 160
DB 63T ; 161
DB 63T ; 162
DB 63T ; 163
DB 64T ; 164
DB 64T ; 165
DB 65T ; 166
DB 65T ; 167
DB 65T ; 168
DB 66T ; 169
DB 66T ; 170
DB 67T ; 171
DB 67T ; 172
DB 67T ; 173
DB 68T ; 174
DB 68T ; 175
DB 69T ; 176
DB 69T ; 177
DB 69T ; 178
DB 70T ; 179
DB 70T ; 180
DB 70T ; 181
DB 71T ; 182
DB 71T ; 183
DB 72T ; 184
DB 72T ; 185
DB 72T ; 186
DB 73T ; 187
DB 73T ; 188
DB 74T ; 189
DB 74T ; 190
DB 74T ; 191
DB 75T ; 192
DB 75T ; 193
DB 76T ; 194
DB 76T ; 195
DB 76T ; 196
DB 77T ; 197
DB 77T ; 198
DB 78T ; 199
DB 78T ; 200
DB 78T ; 201
DB 79T ; 202
DB 79T ; 203
DB 80T ; 204
DB 80T ; 205
DB 80T ; 206
DB 81T ; 207
DB 81T ; 208
DB 81T ; 209
DB 82T ; 210
DB 82T ; 211
DB 83T ; 212
DB 83T ; 213
DB 83T ; 214
DB 84T ; 215
DB 84T ; 216
DB 85T ; 217
DB 85T ; 218
DB 85T ; 219
DB 86T ; 220
DB 86T ; 221
DB 87T ; 222
DB 87T ; 223
DB 87T ; 224
DB 88T ; 225
DB 88T ; 226
DB 89T ; 227
DB 89T ; 228
DB 89T ; 229
DB 90T ; 230
DB 90T ; 231
DB 90T ; 232
DB 91T ; 233
DB 91T ; 234
DB 92T ; 235
DB 92T ; 236
DB 92T ; 237
DB 93T ; 238
DB 93T ; 239
DB 94T ; 240
DB 94T ; 241
DB 94T ; 242
DB 95T ; 243
DB 95T ; 244
DB 96T ; 245
DB 96T ; 246
DB 96T ; 247
DB 97T ; 248
DB 97T ; 249
DB 98T ; 250
DB 98T ; 251
DB 98T ; 252
DB 99T ; 253
DB 99T ; 254
DB 100T ; 255
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I see what you are saying - if the TPS calibration showed the throttle as being 8% open then the Idle control will never come in, because the the threshold is set to 2% (as I wrote in a previous post).
The calibration wizard never seems to work properly - that thread explains how I calibrate a TPS.
You want the VEMS to read 0% when the throttle pedal is up, and 100% when the throttle pedal is down.
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Thanks for that Rob.
i fixed that now!
under tuning/acceleration dotrate/% you get the scale you need to tune for accel.enrichment.
i seemed to be able to fix accel.enrichment faster through there,but all changes i made there, were not impleneted in the settings window after that. Should they be there,or is tuning something you see real time and once you are happy with what you have,you go back to the window and put the new values in?
vasilis
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Don't forget to Burn to ECU after your changes.
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good think you mentioned that. it seems that when i do changes, ECU responds withough me having to burn to ecu. I do press the button,but i can see the responce from the engine even before i do that.
so is the burn to ecu always needed?
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also, quick question:
i realise what PID means,
can someone tell me what the integral increase/decrease means, as well as the deadband for integral and IAC? (rpm)
thanks
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The best explaination I've seen is this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller
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after a little more time playing around i noticed that when car is warm and idle is fully controlled by ignition timing (IAC ref table 71C = 0) as i said before the EGTs are higher than what i would like them to be.
even after a short drive, the car goes to neutral or stops and EGTs are all the way up to 580C to 600C when really they should be around 100 degrees less. On motronic i would only see for a short time 550 max after a long drive,so i think i should dig into the IAC controlled idle more although ignition based idle seems easy and steady.
I have noticed that the more i use the IAC on warm engine, the more tuning it needs BUT the lower the EGTs fall.
Finally, since motronic always has about 8deg of TB open when the accel pedal is not pressed, i thought of trying something else. If i increase the amount the IAC is contributing to idle through the ref table, and give a bit of TB angle into it, the idle seems to rise a bit.AND EGTs fall.
there is a pattern there and i will look into it more...
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Make sure that the TPS is right for the VEMS, while its a good idea to compare the two systems, they will have different readings and different features.
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yes indeed. i was just trying to figure out a way for the IAC valve to work more and react more in warm engine rather than ignition timing doing all the work and rising the EGTs for it.
if i use something like 18deg of ignition timing for the idle bin,and then allow the ISV to still interact,to an extent that both working together do the job, i think that should do it.
reading through the PID on wiki now...
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Finished!!!
well
questions: What do the numbers represent in the P/I/D sections? I assume it is just a solid number,and it does not represent time in min or sec for example.
In VEMS the terms intergral incr/decrease and integral deadband(rpm). Should i assume that these are values that are having to do with the I value and the limit to which the I can take in values?
Also the IAC deadband basically is a number that we would like the IAC NOT to work in, what should that number be? WHEN do we NOT want the ISV valve to work?
ALso my other query is how should the IAC ref table should look like?These are % of IAC position,which means....? Im just thinking that this is the amount of IAC implementation to the idle along with the ignition timing. Am i right?
Finally am i right in thinking that when the car is cold and we start it up, we want the IAC to work over time and as the engine warms up we want it to work less?
cheers
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I found some info from the VAGCOM diagnostic about the Audi IAC which may help.BUT i need someone to 'translate' what those values could mean.
I have:
1) IAC operating range : 121-135
2) IAC curve zero point : 70-125
3) IAC load adjustment : 123-137
4) IAC curve control : 41-61
does anyone have an idea of what those values would mean and how those can be translated into the PID type of control we have in VEMS?
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As I understand it the values effect the change of solenoid duty. The reference table as you suspect seems to help the controller react more when its cold and then reduce changes as things warm-up.
The rest is trial and error - and I've never played much with a idle control solenoids as the cars I've played with are track only and when a solenoid has been fitted they've been happy with simple on/off type.
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i had another go today. Im pleased with the results on the IAC control so long as i set the DC on the 71C bin at 10.This basically tells the IAC to become less involved with the whole procedure.
PID is a bit tricky to configure,but the less the IAC is involved,the less you have to play with.At least that is what i realised today.On normal driving as well as not using AC or any other electrical part on the car, it seems that PID can all be set to 0 pretty much.Cause the idle is mostly ignition based. However, on 15deg of advance and IAC DC:10 i do get a bit lower EGTs as i wanted
However, the solution may as well be somewhere in between, as when i tried to have IAC DC= 40 on warm engine, i had managed to get EGTs down to 400C and semi decent IAC control through PID.So a combination of both will give the good result.
Basically i now have to see how all these changes affect the cold start and then see the PID settings i need to make for AC/electrical devices control,as by the end when i tested it it seemed to jump around a bit, but having said that i had PID settings to 0 at that time.Even with that and AC only on, it seemed to be very stable.Without it, Idle went directly to the set point of 900rpm!
Happy with that!
A small note on accel.enrichments.After being happy with the idle for a while and VE/spark were ok i tried again on the accel.enrich.
When i press the accel with various velocities, even on adj. of injector pw to 0.1 or 0.2 i still get a 10-15 drop in EGTs before they start to rise again. Im trying to understand if this means that it needs more or less fuel to react faster!
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Your lambda will tell you not EGT´s
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well lamda goes both ways anyway. first lean,then rich.Hence the EGT drop i gues.
my problem with accel.enrichment is the same as everyone elses. Unfortunatelly is way far than the accuracy and feel of the original ECU. Im not sure if VEMS with just 8 bins can cope with all that is required for it.
Also, i noticed that under Tuning/acceleration RPM vs Amount, all my RPM banks read 100 and the amount banks 0. Why is that? what does that map represent?
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by the way, when i tried to look into what is happening on motronic for acceleration enrich. it seems that whenever you depress the accel. EGTs do not drop so much,as it happens in VEMS.
SO basically i think im having too much enrichment with long duration??
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well lamda goes both ways anyway. first lean,then rich.Hence the EGT drop i gues.
my problem with accel.enrichment is the same as everyone elses. Unfortunatelly is way far than the accuracy and feel of the original ECU. Im not sure if VEMS with just 8 bins can cope with all that is required for it.
Also, i noticed that under Tuning/acceleration RPM vs Amount, all my RPM banks read 100 and the amount banks 0. Why is that? what does that map represent?
can you see in the logs the TPSacc amount?
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yes. they are all 0.0.....hmmmm
why is that???
Also rechecked older logs as well. All of them are 0.0 !!!! so basically im running all this time without ANY accel amount? why?
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Cause it has not been tuned.
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what do you mean?
Under Settings/ acceleration enrichment i have values:
4-20-40-60 for dv/dt
and for acceleration amount:
0.0/0.6/1.2/2.4
why arent these values written on the datalog?
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Cause you need to tune the RPM amounts as well.
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what values should be there then? on the rpm amounts?
i must say that i have never read that in all searches i have done about accel.enrichment!
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do those scales actually work on 1.1.44?
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Post up screenshots of all your accel enrich tables and windows.
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here you go
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/vasp3690/accelrenrichment.jpg)
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/vasp3690/dotratevsscale.jpg)
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/vasp3690/rpmvsamount.jpg)
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Seems your rpm bins are a bit off.
I would assume the 1000rpm still needs more then 0ms,
but the 200, 300 and 400rpm should more likely be 2000, 3000 and 4000 rpm.
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yes indeed. i handt realised im supposed to play with those as well!!!!
i now used: 1000/2300/3800/5000 rpm
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here are my idle settings
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/vasp3690/goodidlesettings1.jpg)
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/vasp3690/goodidlesettings2.jpg)
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/vasp3690/goodidlesettings3.jpg)
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Awesome progress there.
I've been up a roof all day so not able to chip in my 2p's worth.
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this setup seems to work perfect on warm engine. I must do more tests on cold engine to be sure it it adequate there as well.
as for the accel.enrichments, i did some modifications and hopefully test them tomorrow.
I must spend some time now on fine tuning my VE map up to 0.5bar (mechanical boost) as there are some differences with the motronic one,I have turned the EGO correction completelly off and pushed the VE values a bit higher up for safety,and tomorrow im going to datalog as much as i can.
It is interesting that although i have up to 45deg advance on after 4500prm and up to 102kpa, on motronic and same runs i get no more than 820C EGTs and on VEMS i get 870C(of course i dont know the lamda values of the motronic per se, but the 870C value i get with quite a rich high rpm values ( up to 0.90-0.87).
When i tried to reduce the advance, i got an increase of EGTs.... strange....(even with same lamda values)
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Lower advance always results in increased EGTs.
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but im already using higher advance than any other map table i have seen!!!!
what else could it be?
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Your worrying WAY to much about your EGT´s at this stage.
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well should i use that as an indicator as well ?
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EGT´s are nowhere as important/worrying as people tend to think especially is the engine is running fine.
Just map the fuel and ignition.
Preferably on a dyno.
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here is my spark table.
it appears to be working on motronic,although on motronic it is derived from 3 i think separate maps, it appears that vagcom logs give me this more or less(as well as eprom reading)
so im building the fueling based on that map for starters. So far it appears to work fine.(up to 0.5bar boost though)
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/vasp3690/sparknew.jpg)
any suggestions/pointers?
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also motronic has an advance/retard vs MAT feature which retards the map by 6deg when MAT is >62C and 9deg if MAT >83C
on the other hand it advances ignition by 2/3/5 deg on MATs: 28C/21C/5C
that would give me some room on the map.Still Motronic has various side maps which i dont know how they correlate with those base figures and what changes are done in them.
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Why are you building a map based on a motronic map?
Why not just tune your ECU?
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well because that motronic map is done for my car as it is now,with the same excact equipment and it works. i thought that this map i have is giving me about 430 crank hp so having those info on how it is done would give me a good idea of how to try and match it eventually.
I dont have time or access to a dyno atm and if i did i would prefer someone who has more experience in tuning to do the job,but i do have a perfomance box from racelogic and i can do runs here and there and compare them.It will take more time,but at least it will increase my knowledge on tuning this thing..
building a proper ignition timing map needs a dyno for sure,unless you are veeeeery experienced and you can do it on a private road.I may have to check it/ fine tune it in the future.
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I see,
you must also know what the other variable factors where present at the time of your motronic map construction
air temps and such as the compensation tables in the motronic will have had an effect on the actual ignition output.
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yes i do understand that you are absolutelly right.
my mapping was done in germany in about 15C ambient temps at that time and motronic does use ignition retard based on MAT,but so far i can only add fuel with VEMS. hopefully on a good working 1.1.50 version i can add that to the equations.
good thing is that my IC is efficient,and i only get high MAT only after hours of standstill idle and heatsoak,which quickly goes below 44C which is the threshold seen on motronic to retard.
im playing it safe adding a bit more fuel anyway and slowly giving some back to check the ideal circomstances so far.
today i switched EGO correction off to tune my VE map better and i actually got the accel.enrichments working!!!!
runs much better now!
small steps of progression....
a few things about cold idle though: though my settings for warm idle with the ISV are very good, it is very bad on cold idle.So today i took the ISV valve off the equation a bit more,so that ignition timing will work more on that area of coolant temps as well. Seems better.
more tests needed though!
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Latest idle control setup is:
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/vasp3690/latestpwmIACtable.jpg)
basically the cold start is the only problem now and with this latest table it seems to respond much better. Hopefully i wont have to tweek it too much after that!
Also managed to fine tune my VE table up to 4000rpm and 150kpa so far which is nice!
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tried today for another cold start.
symptoms: Cars requires more secs to start(although i havent touched crank startup settings)
When it firesup, it goes directly to 800rpm,EGTs are very low(about 200-300C= quite rich due to warm up enrichments) and it goes near to stall or stalls after a small accel. on throttle as it comes back to settle on the rpm value.
So although settings for cold start(coolant temps around this time of year are around 24C) are a bit better than before,im wondering if i need to use the IAC more on start up(from 65-to 80 or something) and/or play around with ignition based timing on start up more as well.I dont want to touch the PID settings again as they seem to work beautifully for all other circomstances.
Would it also make a diff. if i reduced the warmup enrichments on that coolant bins as well?
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I would begin with opening up the ICV to let in more air.
You´ll have to fiddle with the pwm table to find the right number for each coolant temp.
Same with startup, if it´s harder to start it usually means it needs more fuel to start.
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hmm ok then
what ill do is leave warm up enrich. as it is now and play around the ISV pw table as it seems that it needs more tweeking
thanks!!!
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played around a bit more today.
i think it is better now,but somehow now when cold revs dont go to the 1100mark,but stay on 800-850rpm and gradually the idle seems more stable...
at that point, the mixture is quite rich,so im thinking of maybe reducing the afterstart enrichment value to test.
it is 99% now.
also if cranking takes longer,does it usually need more PW or less? (high impedence injectors)
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when i look at the VAGCOM logs,it seems that motronic is keeping about 8.9 to 9.2Deg of advance in idle,on warm engine and 800rpm. Now would that mean that the ISV is doing more work to keep idle stable there?
im using about 15deg now on warm engine and it is fine...
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I think that the idle of 8-10 degrees would be worth trying, you are attempting to get the VEMS to mirror the same sort of settings as the Motronic so it seems an idea to at least experiment with it.
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i think im a bit at a loss here...
1) although vagcom tells me i have 9-10Deg advance on idle, and 800rpm, on the ignition timing map,i have 18.75deg on that cell!
2) it seems that im getting a difference of about 100-120C on EGTs on low revs like 1500 till 3500 until the area of lower lamda values kick in to settle things, and this happens with vaccum till 0.2-0.4bar of boost.
i cannot understand why this is hotter than the original as it makes no sense to have lamda less than 1 on those areas!
I tried(just to satisfy my curiosity really) to make the spark map on those areas less aggressive,and of course it brought the EGTs even higher by a few C.
im going to see my data logs on that area.
As for the idle,it is perfect BUT still sits up to 100C higher than the oem. I refitted the OEM ECU just to check and in a hot engine,it actually sits around 480-520C and on VEMS it varies from 570 to 610C
what is wrong???
Rob, can i send you my msg to see?
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Ok, first thing. Never assume always measure :) Unless I can observe it, I never trust anything. From the weather to TDC marks, it always holds true.
So, following that piece of advice from my dear old dad, forget what is in any box on a PC screen, what value is the engine actually using? Verify OEM and VEMS with a strobe.
Second, I assume you are using the same EGT and lambda gauge for both the OEM and VEMS? Different gauges can read different values for the same real life temp. It's all about repeatability rather than accuracy for comparison sakes. What lambda is the OEM running? should be 1, but as I say, nothing in this life is a given :)
Also, any chance of a scope on the OEM injector to see the stock PW/injector firing trace?
And lastly, if you say you have a great idle, why worry about the EGT's? I have tuned many a car without EGT and they have ran hard and good :) Sometimes ignorance really is bliss lol
-Gavin
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Yes i could go that way and be done with it but i think all factors play their role. Of course the more i complicate things,the more difficult they become to finding a solution.
Let me put it this way. Car was mapped,no hardware has been changed, everything works nicely with OEM ECU.Use an EGT sensor on the turbo hotside and car was mapped according to readings from that, and wideband that was located in the original narrowband wideband at the time.
Changed to VEMS.Added and EGT sensor,but after a misunderstanding with the shop that fitted it they have fitted it away from the turbo,thus reading less than what the original EGT sensor i had fitted on the turbo hotside reads.After lots of data logging and comparison,on lower EGT readings i get a difference of 150C between those two sensors and as the temperatures rise,that gap closes to 120-110C. So eg. when the hotside shows 550C the EGT that feeds VEMS shows 400C. When the hotside reads 800C, VEMS sees 685C and so forth.
IM not keen on having the car working on such high EGT temperatures as i know it is not healthy for the engine.I believe that the map on the motronic has been done to the highest safest level so trying to get VEMS to do what motronic does is something i can use as a reference.
I dont have all maps from the motronic.I dont know how they interconnect to create the final result.So im trying to utilise VEMS maps in to get the live data that would seem to be closer to the motronic.That would be safer possible i think.
after a quick comparison on the logs it seems that possibly a couple of deg.reduction in advance may have caused a small EGT drop.So maybe this is an overly advanced map....more looking into is required.
ALso i realise that my idle is very good,but the fact that the ISV is not working as it should is the reason why i get higher EGTs on idle.So when i start moving,instead of starting at 480C and gradualy EGTs rise as i move along,imagine that this happens from 580C!!! no wonder i drive around on normal city driving and reaching up to 700-750C!!!!. that is highway cruising speed EGTs!!! not simple driving around!
i know im talking about EGTs a lot,but it is something that reflects the combination of spark+fueling,and something that i have a reference between the 2 ECUs
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Has your VEMS EGT been configured correctly?
And then again stressing what Sprockets said,
you need to forget assumptions.
Check the live actual timing values before concluding anything.
Rememeber
assumption is the mother of all mistakes.
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how does one check the actual timings?
EGT settings were set from Marc
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and besides,as i already mentioned the EGT readings i look at,at the moment are not the ones VEMS sees,but the ones that the independed EGT sensor sees,which has been used for the original map of the car
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has anyone tried using a voltage stabilizer,same as those people use when having big ICE systems in their cars?
i am getting a voltage drop from 14V to about 12V from when the engine is just working (14V) to engine + all electrical equipm. on (12V) and it is that time that the PID control is not working that well.If i could get that voltage adjusted a bit better,maybe vems would have less trouble controlling idle.
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Are you sure that its the ICV thats being effected and not that the dwell and the injector voltage compensations that are incorrect?
Have you pulled your idle timing back to the ~9deg thats needed?
Don't get too hung up on perfect idle at this stage, it is a very tricky thing to get right, how is the low and part load mapping going?
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well i tried 2 sets of spark tables to compare. The one that had reduced advance,brought the EGTs even higher and quicker. The other one was slightly better.
i redid the spark table to try and make it more accurate for the VEMS,and im going out in a little while.
As for the ISV valve, the thing is that i do want to make the idle acceptable and though im amazed that i have all configuration now pretty much found for the cold + warm start and operation, when it comes to alter those to compensate for increased load, things begin to mess up and it cant be done right.Dwell time is 2.5ms
It appears that there may be a voltage drop substantial to VEMS to make it very difficult to control the idle.I tried the 9-10Deg option and almost got something that is acceptable again on normal load, but once it got more needy(AC on/lights/fogs etc) it got even worse.
it may be a matter of configuration really, BUT i do fear that in the end, it will need more than 1 configuration to get things right.
IS there a setting in VEMS that can 'not see' the voltage drop due to load so that it can react similarly without changing settings that already work nicely?
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i noticed today after the tests that the battery voltage that VEMS sees can alter with lightish load up to 1V. Now i know that with more current, voltage draw may be more,but i didnt test that today.
As far as mapping is concerned i noticed that i need to advance the map a bit more to be able to get to the temps i need.When i use lamda=1 on the low revs, temps go higher the less advance i give.
How easy is it to get knock on low revs? (up to 2900 really where no boost is coming in anyway)?
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You would have to run vera lean and extreme advance to get knock at low rpm´s
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this is my latest spark table.. how does that seem to you? i know that every engine is different,but..
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/vasp3690/spark161.jpg)
here is the lamda im going to try with it
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/vasp3690/lamda161.jpg)
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I have mixed feelings today after the runs.
1) Idle control: Have managed to find various setups that would work on normal load circomstances,but not that well under load and voltage drop. Still needs optimizing
2) Spark table is pretty much ok on the areas that i manage to look at.By OK i mean that if i decrease the timing, EGTs travel upwards when lamda=1.If increase the spark to a point,things are ok,(but still EGT higher than what motronic is capable of doing).Any increase more than that,and you can 'feel' that the engine is not running right.So not tampering with timing anymore.
3)I tried making the mixture richer than what it is to be able to have nicer EGTs on cruising speeds, and it worked a little,but the engine was actually happier when lamda reached a value of 0.95 or something!!! Now that is not right...
4) I noticed that on different TPS values,the car had EGT jumps quite high, SO i thought of altering the MAT enrichment table a bit to add a bit more fuel when TPS is more depressed. That does help matters a bit, but it goes completelly against the gas ideal law.As my car does long hours of testing and stationary tests, MAT can go up to 50 or 70C and on those areas and low TPS dips im supposed to substract fuel, not add to it! However engine is running hotter when i dont do that,so? what else to do?
Something that really bugs me is the fact that with TPS od 5-10% the lamda goes really lean!!! why is that?
Overall from 1300-3000rpm and 30-110kPa, motronic is able to keep EGTs at about 100-120C less than what VEMS can do.
And im wondering.. if those areas on most(if not all) maps are tuned in a way that should be stoic,since you are aiming for economy at cruise, how is it possible to have even for lamda=1 that big of a difference,when spark table is close to as good as it gets?
Also from the motronic fuel table i have(which is not lamda orientated,(rather than numeric,could be ms of injection or just a value) i can clearly see that all those areas of rev range and load(maf values) are using the lowest values from the rest of the table.Hence they should be at least lamda=1 if not less!!!!
Could this be a lamda calibration error? could this be something else?
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also, what does the 'engine' column stand for in the datalog?
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Ideal gas law does not take the dynamics of an engine into account, you start to use fuel to cool the cylinder slightly.
No matter what the calibration error is, lambda 1 is always lambda 1, the calibration accuracy dictates the quality of the reading either side of lambda 1.
Are you talking about the mixture going lean when you hold the throttle at 5% to 10% opening, or are you talking about during the acceleration event?
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when it is steady at 6-8TPS for example and steady revs, it is always much leaner.. like 1.05 or 1.08 or something. Not an acceleration event
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Are you sure that its not the fuel map at that kpa?
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As I can see you are using 1.1.44 I due not think that’s a good idea because it’s not a released version use 1.1.27 instead.
A lot of code is been made the last year but not everything is working, as it should and it can affect some bad behavior in the Vems.
I use 1.1.44 in my s2 but having great trouble controlling the fuel also EGO correction seams wired.
Always use a released version
Peter
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peter, you may be right in the end about this. Marc told me that he had been testing the 1.1.44 version and was happy with it so that is why we decided to go for it.
i changed my VE table on the bottom line just to try it once more.
i also managed to get through to the terminal to see the wideband calibration. Wideband was not vrey dirty,and read 20.5 in atmosphere. I didnt get it back to 20.9 because if because of the dirt it is unable to see the correct concentration of O2 in the air, i took it back to 20.7 to 20.8 instead.
Peter, do you think my EGT problems could be because of that?
I dont know if i should go back to 1.1.27 or just wait for the 1.1.50 version...
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Hmm I also talked to Marcell and he told me to use 1.1.27 only use experimental firmware if you need the new functions badly so if marc have told you to use 1.1.44 that will surprise me.
Also it’s wary important that you have the (h0) in order so you are firing the injectors in the correct order ore you will have a bad idle.
I think you should use 1.1.27 and when one of the new firmware is released you could upgrade then.
Tnx peter
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Well that came with the ECU, the basic settings were done by Marc so i haven't touched them.
is there any view in a new release? i would rather go forward than back,although i do understand what you are saying.
im really interested in the mat retard feature.
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when i look at the config.txt file (without the laptop being connected to the ECU at this time) i get like 391warnings and 0 errors. What does that mean?
Im in the process of trying to upload the 1.1.27beta6 firmware but i dont want to use the 12x12 tables.Id like to go with the 14x16 tables.So i will need to have the rest of the basic settings fitted and i can make the tables from scratch.
But it seems that there are issues im not aware of,such as different megatune screen,some different input in settings, etc.
should i just hit the upload-firmware.bat while connected to VEMS and since i already have a msq file from a different working RS2,use those settings directly?(change the maps of course)
?
edit: also have the v3GUI tool but dont know how to use it.
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Learning haw to Uploading firmware can be wary hard work and a lot of things can go wrong when downgrading.
It’s always a good idea to make some screenshots of all the settings so you have something to look at when setting up the new settings/firmware.
Take a mct and mcd dump and save them fore later use.
Instructions haw to install firmware can be found in the downloaded firmware file (Readme)
The best solution fore you I think is to send the Vems Ecu back to the shop and let them due the work and I am sure that it will save you a lot of time and work.
Tnx Peter
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well yes that is also a solution,but the fact is that sending the ECU back to marc to do so,is not easy + customs may be a problem.
anyway, the wideband recalibration seemed to help a little. It was 20.5 and i took it back to 20.8 rather than 20.9.
Still car is not running as well as it should.Anyway,i think i had my try so far.I may just wait for the next official version until i try anything else.Motronic will do fine for now.
Also it seems that in the near future i will have less time to deal with tuning unfortunatelly so i may have to have mine done by an expert.
oh well...
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I shipped him 1.1.44 at his request. by default, I ship 1.1.27.
I'll be testing out the 1.1.5x releases soon, any idea when something in the 1.1.5x will be declared production stable?
Hmm I also talked to Marcell and he told me to use 1.1.27 only use experimental firmware if you need the new functions badly so if marc have told you to use 1.1.44 that will surprise me.
Also it’s wary important that you have the (h0) in order so you are firing the injectors in the correct order ore you will have a bad idle.
I think you should use 1.1.27 and when one of the new firmware is released you could upgrade then.
Tnx peter
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I think i will wait for the 1.1.5x versions. I believe that the car is running a bit better now,although still a long way to go.
will keep you posted...
i wonder if it is possible to mount a gauge to the wideband as it is now,and with the motronic on, to check the motronic's lamda values... is that possible?
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You´ll have to have a wideband controller attached to the O2.
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i see
i found one simple from trigger-wheels. If it matches i may try it and see how it goes
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i placed my order with that kit and hopefully i will be able to track down my lamda mixture soon. At least this way i will have a more comprehensive way to see what is going on and hopefully build my fuel and VE map better.
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Why didn´t you just use a wideband sensor connected to the VEMS to adjust the fuelling?
Why go through this extra cost
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Because if i do that i end with a 99% rich map on all occasions in order to get good EGTs which does not make any sense.The fueling map i have from motronic is either in ms of injection or dutycycle of the injectors and therefore i can only get a small clue of how it should be,not actual numbers of lamda.
I want to actually see how the car is setup in the fueling dept. in the motronic,and if i cannot get that with VEMS,then there is a possibility that VEMS may not be doing the job right.Either a firmware problem or something else in the settings.
example: if for a specific TB angle, specific revs and pka and SAME lamda,i get a big difference in EGTs on motronic and VEMS,then that is what im trying to get to.
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Because if i do that i end with a 99% rich map on all occasions in order to get good EGTs which does not make any sense.
How can you conclude thta you will need to run rich all the time? that´s why you will TUNE it to an appropriate Lambda.
Why do you think you need "good" EGT´s.
If you are running the same PW, Ignition timing and getting the same lambda values motronic /vems but different EGT values then your base ignition settings just aren´t correct and would need to be checked.
You should also tune the car on a dyno to remove any doubt of incorrect ignition values or lambda values.
As well as not knowing the lambda values that are happening while running motronic and then blaming your vems on higher EGT´s sounds sort of silly.
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Well silly or not, i dont have the time to go to a dyno and tune ignition timing, especially when im only starting on the 'tuning' process in whole! If id go now on a dyno,it would be a bigger waste of money for me to try and find what is the best thing to do.
When you say 'base timing' settings, what do you mean? Do you mean the spark table itself OR the configuration to which VEMS is relying on to see where the angle is?If that is the case,then would stock cam audi RS2s have different configuration? if not then the settings should be right.
As i posted before, i have tested vems with higher AND lower ignition timing settings and the lower ones gave me higher egt's while the higher made the engine stress out (for that amount of fueling) without giving me any EGTs closer to the motronic.SO that is how i conclude that with VEMS the appropriate lamda ends up being rich, not at least stoich for cruising speeds!What do i have to do to make it proper? advance it to 60deg???
The whole comparison of the 2 ECUs is based on the fact that the engine is excactly the same.Nothing has changed.Therefore there shouldnt be any HUGE differences on timing that would allow that big of a difference in how the engine perfoms or reacts. On motronic i get a more freeflowing car,with less stress and EGTs. My simple question is, HOW do i get VEMS to do the same???
It SHOULD be possible for the engine,since it is already done by motronic,which is a much older and less sofisticated ECU than VEMS.
To just say,tune it to go well and dont mind about EGTs is wrong IMO because all tuners watch what the EGTs are doing when they are tuning. Knockless and low EGTs is the best thing you can achieve.
Besides,im trying to build an everyday car here,not a drag race car that would be stripped on every second occasion,so i cannot afford to do mistakes.
Finally,if i were to pay someone to tune VEMS for me, id rather pay someone to retune the motronic on my next upgrade and figure vems out on my own.
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When you say 'base timing' settings, what do you mean? Do you mean the spark table itself OR the configuration to which VEMS is relying on to see where the angle is?If that is the case,then would stock cam audi RS2s have different configuration? if not then the settings should be right.
I´m talking about the VEMS´s understanding of where top dead center is, if this is wrong then the values in the Ignition tables aren´t accurate. You can check this with a timing light.
As i posted before, i have tested vems with higher AND lower ignition timing settings and the lower ones gave me higher egt's while the higher made the engine stress out (for that amount of fueling) without giving me any EGTs closer to the motronic.SO that is how i conclude that with VEMS the appropriate lamda ends up being rich, not at least stoich for cruising speeds!What do i have to do to make it proper? advance it to 60deg???
How is the engine stressing out?
If you assume same Lambda readings at a particular rpm and load , if the VEMS gives same lambda readings but different EGT readings the EFFECTIVE timing of the engine is not accurate. Meaning that the actual timing will be retarded compared to the Motronic.
Lower timing will always give higher EGT as your delaying the burn process and thus when the exhaust valve opens the mixture is still hotter, This will make alot of people assume that something bad is happening. More advance = lower EGT , which can trick people into thinking that the advance they are running is the right one as the EGT is low wich can then be fatal.
Is your lambda readings 1 at cruise?
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according to Marc who did all the settings on the VEMS unit i bought,the settings for the TDC are accurate and correct.
By engine stressing out,i mean that you get the whole car being revved,being louder than it is,and not going any faster that what it did with less advance.Like at the verge of knock in otherwords.ALso at those settings,once more fuel was added,it seemed to be going better.
if i understand it correctly vems is retarding ignition on a predifined curve depended on MAT.right? so is there any other way that the EFFECTIVE ignition timing can be altered? Based on the vagvom logs i have, on 2500rpm and around 60-80pka on cruising speed i have something like 40.5deg of advance. This is what i have used in VEMS,and on same conditions EGTs were not the same.
from VEMS datalogs, on lamda =1 or 0.98 on cruising,that is when i get the most of the difference in egts.But also on small accelerations on low revs as well.It was only when i tested and gave lamda 0.94-0.95 that i managed to get the car run more easily and 'immitate' more closely the egts that i get from motronic.
IF i reduce timing a bit, the car also seems to like it a bit more, but the EGT difference gets even bigger and therefore on cruising 0.94 would not be enough..
also not to mention that on 170pka that i had done tests and lamda going down to 0.8 and 0.78 the car still got into the 900C whereas motronic on that boost never passed the 820(on the same sensor under the same conditions (roughly),same test road
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If your EGT is lower then at that point your ignition advance is higher ,
there is no way around it,
so you motronic is producing higher advance then your VEMS ecu.
What´s causing that must be fault found.
Most likely that settings that you are assuming are right and correct.
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Well, Marc is at the process of rechecking that and also i will be conducting test with the lamda to track down the fueling map that motronic has.I think in the end we'll nail it down!
thanks for the info though!
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Why are you bothering with Motronic maps?
You should get the car tuned, both ignition and fuel not comparing untuned VEMS to Motronic. First insert reasonable (=safe) spark advance values, then get the fuel right on the road and then go to the dyno to get the igntion spot-on.
And forget about the Motronic.
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as i said before.
simple question.What would you concider 'safe' EGT for cruising speeds? 700? 800? 900? degrees celcius?
If i tune for a safe ignition timing,then my fueling must go up to 0.95lamda at least to get a safe of 750C ON the turbo hotside measured temperature for cruising speeds.If i go by lamda values being 1 on cruising,then timing has to go really high in order to have the temperatures behaving.
finally again i cannot go on my own to a dyno to do any tuning,it would be a waste of time and money,as i have no previous experience.I would have to go with someone that knows VEMS or a professional tuner.
I will do that next year on my final engine upgrade. In the meantime i will do little by little on my own.
Can i ask clearly what are your baselines for safety when tuning? what spark or EGTs do you expect on specific location of the sensor to regard that as safe and tune it accordingly?(cause i say what i say from things i have heard from tuners)
do you think the exhaust manifold and turbo will like it being on 900C continuesly on crusing for 2-3 hours drive?
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Safe EGTs are a tricky subject.
http://195.159.109.134/vemsuk/forum/index.php/topic,532.msg5450.html#msg5450
Can we confirm that you're getting different readings from exactly the same sensor in the same place with the same EGT gauge?
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yes i have written that a few times earlier.Im only using the sam egt sensor that the motronic map was based at.Nothing else.VEMS egt sensor has not be placed in an adequate position and therefore does not suplly with any usefull information at this time.I will have to rearrange it once the donwpipe is done next year.
EGTs are now measured ON the turbo hotside and this is what i use as a reference and comparison
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do you think the exhaust manifold and turbo will like it being on 900C continuesly on crusing for 2-3 hours drive?
If you are getting 900C during cruising and lambda1 your Ignition table values are not the values the engine is seeing.
This is similar to what happened with my friends RB26 Skyline, the sensor got damaged and the ignition values of say 20degress where actually -10 degress and the EGT was excessive I had to raise the advance 30degrees just to make the car drivable. After he got a new sensor and replaced it, he took away the 30deg higher advance from the system and is was the same.
That´s why it´s very important that you get a timing light to verify that the ignition table values you have in your VEMS are actually right.
Any more forum pondering is useless. This is something you should check as soon as possible.
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right, ok,
IF the sensor on the crankshaft was faulty,that would mean that the motronic would also be having the same problem.correct?
So since motronic is working fine,then i can say that the sensor is also working properly.
Hence,the only problem should be in the VEMS settings configuration.
i will try and find out how the procedure of checking the timing is done.
any hints?
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http://images.google.co.uk/images?q=how%20does%20a%20timing%20light%20work&hl=en&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&hs=MpO&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi
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I corrected the timing on his map (it was indeed off, that happened when I moved to using the hall inverter which shifted the value for TDC after the trigger). I've sent him the correct details for his ecu. The settings he was running had his curve retarded by ~5 degrees.
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I corrected the timing on his map (it was indeed off, that happened when I moved to using the hall inverter which shifted the value for TDC after the trigger). I've sent him the correct details for his ecu. The settings he was running had his curve retarded by ~5 degrees.
What setting was wrong in Megatune?
Are we heading to 1.1.44?
1.1.44 If the error-free and runs on the Audi?
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I corrected the timing on his map (it was indeed off, that happened when I moved to using the hall inverter which shifted the value for TDC after the trigger). I've sent him the correct details for his ecu. The settings he was running had his curve retarded by ~5 degrees.
What setting was wrong in Megatune?
Are we heading to 1.1.44?
1.1.44 If the error-free and runs on the Audi?
the new target with eventually be the 1.1.5x branch. I'm comfortable with 1.1.44 until 1.1.5x is stable. The setting that changed is under primary trigger settings. TDC after the trigger. I had it set to 66, should be 56.
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just to keep me occupied, i successfully rolled back to version 1.1.27 with the help of v3gui using the correct air and coolant files.
Now im going to need an .msq file to put in the correct settings (basic) as they are different in 1.1.44 and although the car starts,it is rough.
It appears to be some kind of ignition or injector issue as when the pedal is dipped it runs as if this is a V8 with bad coils! No smoothness there.
Reg_fuel is up to 6.5 for 440cc and 15deg of advance (but with advance based idle is 20ish on idle) and lamda =1
I have set the lamda calibration back to the original input as Marc did so as to have the same value as when it was tested when new, following Rob's advice.
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today im going to try out the msq file that marc uses on the 1.1.27 versions and start tuning from that. Hopefully it will work better and manage to get VEMS on the roll again.
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Version 1.1.27 beta6 is now operative. Im using the 16x14 tables and it seems that everything is working properly now.
new sessions of tuning have begun. AND EGTs look much more down to earth now!!
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When you have a setup with the IAC enabled, is it normal to have different VE readings to achieve lamda=1 on idle,right?
is it normal that the rest of the VE map messes up a little bit, if you had it done for advance based idle only?
i get the impression that when i enable the IAC not only the bins around idle need changing,but more than those...
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It should not change as your measuring pressure and nothing else.
So if pressure changes so does air flow.
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ok thanks!!
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I corrected the timing on his map (it was indeed off, that happened when I moved to using the hall inverter which shifted the value for TDC after the trigger). I've sent him the correct details for his ecu. The settings he was running had his curve retarded by ~5 degrees.
What setting was wrong in Megatune?
Are we heading to 1.1.44?
1.1.44 If the error-free and runs on the Audi?
the new target with eventually be the 1.1.5x branch. I'm comfortable with 1.1.44 until 1.1.5x is stable. The setting that changed is under primary trigger settings. TDC after the trigger. I had it set to 66, should be 56.
I use in Megatune with 1.1.27 : TDC after the trigger 62!
62° this is correct!
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is it 62 or 56 now?
do you have the hall inverter as well?
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I corrected the timing on his map (it was indeed off, that happened when I moved to using the hall inverter which shifted the value for TDC after the trigger). I've sent him the correct details for his ecu. The settings he was running had his curve retarded by ~5 degrees.
What setting was wrong in Megatune?
Are we heading to 1.1.44?
1.1.44 If the error-free and runs on the Audi?
the new target with eventually be the 1.1.5x branch. I'm comfortable with 1.1.44 until 1.1.5x is stable. The setting that changed is under primary trigger settings. TDC after the trigger. I had it set to 66, should be 56.
I use in Megatune with 1.1.27 : TDC after the trigger 62!
62° this is correct!
56 was timing light verified for Vasilis. Do you have a cam hall inverter?
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I corrected the timing on his map (it was indeed off, that happened when I moved to using the hall inverter which shifted the value for TDC after the trigger). I've sent him the correct details for his ecu. The settings he was running had his curve retarded by ~5 degrees.
What setting was wrong in Megatune?
Are we heading to 1.1.44?
1.1.44 If the error-free and runs on the Audi?
the new target with eventually be the 1.1.5x branch. I'm comfortable with 1.1.44 until 1.1.5x is stable. The setting that changed is under primary trigger settings. TDC after the trigger. I had it set to 66, should be 56.
I use in Megatune with 1.1.27 : TDC after the trigger 62!
62° this is correct!
56 was timing light verified for Vasilis. Do you have a cam hall inverter?
Yes I have the Cam Hall inverter under the Camshaftwheel.Aber whether this is on you now I can not exactly say.
Trigger tooth when a 0 is disabled or is then on???
My settings are:
TDC after the Trigger 62
Number of teeth on Wheel 90
Trigger tooth 0
Next Trigger tooth 18
TDC What settings do you use?
I have the TDC (62 °) with the Timing light determined.
Sorry for my bad english ;-)
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Yes I have the Cam Hall inverter under the Camshaftwheel.Aber whether this is on you now I can not exactly say.
Trigger tooth when a 0 is disabled or is then on???
My settings are:
TDC after the Trigger 62
Number of teeth on Wheel 90
Trigger tooth 0
Next Trigger tooth 18
TDC What settings do you use?
I have the TDC (62 °) with the Timing light determined.
Sorry for my bad english ;-)
For what its worth, they ship the ecus from Hungary with 58 as the default for TDC after the trigger. Frankly I think the slight variation can be from different reference pin arrangements. My testing was done on a stock S6 flywheel with the big square reference peg. My setting is 56 timing light verified, all the rest of the settings the same as you list.
what mark are you using to strobe the light on? I manually rotated my motor to TDC using a screwdriver down cylinder #1 and painted a mark visible through the bell housing viewport on the flywheel so I could strobe against that paint mark to check the timing. dont rely on the factory flywheel reference marks.
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Yes I have the Cam Hall inverter under the Camshaftwheel.Aber whether this is on you now I can not exactly say.
Trigger tooth when a 0 is disabled or is then on???
My settings are:
TDC after the Trigger 62
Number of teeth on Wheel 90
Trigger tooth 0
Next Trigger tooth 18
TDC What settings do you use?
I have the TDC (62 °) with the Timing light determined.
Sorry for my bad english ;-)
For what its worth, they ship the ecus from Hungary with 58 as the default for TDC after the trigger. Frankly I think the slight variation can be from different reference pin arrangements. My testing was done on a stock S6 flywheel with the big square reference peg. My setting is 56 timing light verified, all the rest of the settings the same as you list.
what mark are you using to strobe the light on? I manually rotated my motor to TDC using a screwdriver down cylinder #1 and painted a mark visible through the bell housing viewport on the flywheel so I could strobe against that paint mark to check the timing. dont rely on the factory flywheel reference marks.
Hello,
I have an aluminum flywheel from Fidanza.Das is the same as the 3B engine.
The timing light is from Bosch and works great.
I have tested the 1 Cylinder with 0 ° at Spark Timing.I have the timing lamp on the vibration damper held where the notch is.
Just curious as I have my VEMS PNP also with the 58 ° adjustment from getting(buying) Vems.hu
If this is the Cur Flywheels different PIN's would then have to do not with the stock Motronic ECU running.
(http://img192.imageshack.us/i/schwungrad3b.jpg/)
http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=InputTrigger%2FAudiTrigger (http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=InputTrigger%2FAudiTrigger)
Greets
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most of mines Audis are 61..62 IIRC.
But one time I saw difference when gearbox and flywheel was mounted from N/A 7A.
I suggest confirm with timing light in every case.
Gints
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most of mines Audis are 61..62 IIRC.
But one time I saw difference when gearbox and flywheel was mounted from N/A 7A.
I suggest confirm with timing light in every case.
Gints
Hello,
So do you use the 61 or 62 ° setting at TDC after the trigger right?
Thats the same as my ;-)
Greets
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but is there a difference between those that have alu flywheel or other custom parts than the OEM parts?
i have the OEM dual mass flywheel on the rs2. so since marc has the same,im thinking that the timing should be more towards that number
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but is there a difference between those that have alu flywheel or other custom parts than the OEM parts?
i have the OEM dual mass flywheel on the rs2. so since marc has the same,im thinking that the timing should be more towards that number
The Fidanza sits in exactly the same as when cycling or 3B ABY, AAN, ADU wheel.Also the Pen is on the same as the 3B or other 5 Cylinders!
If these wheels would be different was the engine with the Motornik not run!Because the Motronik the founding of the G62 uses and with the Hall sensor test.When these two points by 1 ° does not agree with the engine running or not just in overdrive!
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well i dont know how to check my own trigger tooth...thats a problem
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but is there a difference between those that have alu flywheel or other custom parts than the OEM parts?
i have the OEM dual mass flywheel on the rs2. so since marc has the same,im thinking that the timing should be more towards that number
The Fidanza sits in exactly the same as when cycling or 3B ABY, AAN, ADU wheel.Also the Pen is on the same as the 3B or other 5 Cylinders!
If these wheels would be different was the engine with the Motornik not run!Because the Motronik the founding of the G62 uses and with the Hall sensor test.When these two points by 1 ° does not agree with the engine running or not just in overdrive!
not true. I've found the pins on the aluminum flywheels to be offset from the factory position by up to 2 degrees. The pin is also often under-specced (not long enough). I've had to fit longer pins several times to aluminum flywheel cars.
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well i dont know how to check my own trigger tooth...thats a problem
its a little difficult with the stock coil packs. Much easier if you have a firewall mounted coil kit so you can just hook a timing light around the #1 spark plug wire..
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well i dont know how to check my own trigger tooth...thats a problem
its a little difficult with the stock coil packs. Much easier if you have a firewall mounted coil kit so you can just hook a timing light around the #1 spark plug wire..
You need only one wire with 1-2mm isolation(old spar plug is good).
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I did a small drive today. i have been testing a decent spark table and some ISV settings and it seems to be working quite well.
im getting hopes up!
acceleration enrichment tweeking here and there,and slowly start to build some boost.
a help of a passenger to do all this would be nice,so next month ill have the misses drive and me play on the laptop!
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Quick question.
something that i see with this version(1.1.27) is that different TPS steady states on perhaps different gears (but that is something that cannot be seen on datalogging) give quite a big difference in lamda values.
example: on TPS aroun 8 or 10 i may get @ 2000-2300rpm and MAT= 60-70 lamda= 1.08 or something, while on same conditions and TPS=16-20 it can go up to 0.95lamda while VE is unchanged.
Now i know that in order to get both these values into play i would have to have a large EGO correction which is something i would like to avoid.
I know that on newer firmware versions you can actually add more fuel on TPS with the MAT table, so that will be more easily tampered with, but it would be nice to know what people do to help with that on the 1.1.27 version
thanks
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Same VE did not mean same area in VE table and same amount of fuel also.
Check your Lambda table!
Gints
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Your answer does not make sense to me.
lamda table is my target lamda.Target lamda is not reached when for same VE bins and constant VE numbers i have different TPS positions.
Im not talking about big differences.
for example, when cruising on a 5th gear and you are at about 80pka @ 3000rpm, and TPS is 7 or 8%, i may get close to my mark.
BUT if i reach that position through an acceleration of a short time, eg. 18%TPS,when passing through that bin/bins i may have lamda actual, less than what my target is, although with the previous equation, my VE number reached my target lamda nicely.
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well i dont know how to check my own trigger tooth...thats a problem
its a little difficult with the stock coil packs. Much easier if you have a firewall mounted coil kit so you can just hook a timing light around the #1 spark plug wire..
You need only one wire with 1-2mm isolation(old spar plug is good).
are you familiar with this engine configuration? the coils are bolted down to the valve cover stock and its hard to separate a single high voltage wire from the power output stages to the coilpacks because they are bundled together.
I've done it before though using the stock coils by laying them out on the head and hooking an adapter spark plug wire between the #1 coil and a spark plug grounded to the head.
I purposefully shave that wire nearly down to the copper core where I place the clamp to give a better signal to the timing light. works every time.
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have been doing some runs and boost control tests.
it appears that pka boost control is not very good,needs tweeking a bit. Desired boost is not reached and some times i get an initial spike.I changed around the PID control and it seemed a bit better.
also VE map is much better now and timing map is safer and no signs of Knock. Finally EGTs are nicely managed.
Im nearly done with the idle control as well. A few more tweeks for the cold start and warm up enrichments and i think i will be fine.
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I think im now at my final setup.
boost is nicely controlled, high boost/rev bins are much better and are giving me plenty of room for error.
idle is nicely managed finally. A few more times on cold engine just to make sure that i dont need the laptop with me at the car anymore!
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Thanks for keeping us updated, it took a bit of time but I hope you think its worth it in the end.
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Oh yes, it did take some time,and it will still need tweeking,no doubt,but at least im happier now to just go start the car and not worry about simple things going wrong.
i was wondering in the future of fitting a touchscreen double din with a car pc. Does vems have the capability to be operated through that if needed? or does it specifically needs a laptop?
touch screen can locate functions,but i assume that it will need a keyboard anyway for inputs.
anyway.im going to do some measurements of power today with the Perfomance box and also try some different spark settings to see the differences. I have done runs with the motronic before so i can compare!
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Hi,
No reason you can't use a car PC, I do ;)
Cheers,
Gavin :)
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Gavin,
do you have to use keyboard for it though?
today i had a bit more luck and fun.Apparently i made some measurements and i get about 400hp and 550Nm of torgue on ambient temp of 20C and inlet temps of 34C. The power comes much faster than motronic and i actually can say that i get a few more hp than motronic,although i have less timing than motronic!!
i do get some problems with 6th gear pulls when on low revs,like 2800rpm.. it climbs the boost quite fast and it stumbles on 1.5bar not being able to get through it for 1000rpm and then goes forward again. During that time the car feels like it is very rich or something.
from the logs, it goes rapidly from 0.90lamda to 0.80 so i already tweeked the map to make it a tad leaner there,so that it goes more gradueally towards that 0.80lamda value
to keep 1.7bar to the red line i have to have about 0.75lamda for the time being.Im not sure if i can get more hp,if i reduce the boost and make whatever acceptable to have lamda 0.80...
what do you think>?
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Hi,
I don't use the keyboard as I only monitor rather than tune.
There are touchscreen keyboards and small wireless keyboards with a trackball or joystick.
Cheers,
Gavin :)
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nice!
can you reccomend a cheapish double din compact car pc for me?
by the way, here are some runs! 20C ambient temp, and 34C inlet temp.
3d gear
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/vasp3690/3dgearvems1.jpg)
4th gear
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/vasp3690/4thgearvems1.jpg)
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Hi,
Sorry can't help you there. I'm running separates.
Cheers,
Gavin :)
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can someone remind me the curve with which VEMS is correcting advance vs IAT? i cant seem to find it..
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Hi,
I don't think there is one ??? Just one for fuelling.
Cheers,
Gavin :)
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Hi,
I don't think there is one ??? Just one for fuelling.
Cheers,
Gavin :)
http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=GenBoard%2FManual%2FMatRetard
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can someone remind me the curve with which VEMS is correcting advance vs IAT? i cant seem to find it..
Do you use the 1.1.27 and this have MAT retard?
Greets
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i have 1.1.27 and i believe that this mat retard is implemented on this version.you cannot alter it.
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can anyone with the 5cyl engine tell me what kind of dwell times you use?
i have OEM coils
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can anyone with the 5cyl engine tell me what kind of dwell times you use?
i have OEM coils
i have 6cyl and use 2.2ms, so far 600HP without missfire(lambda 0.8).
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it must be different. on the 1.1.44 i used 2.5ms because of the multiplier. i didnt know and so far i have been using the same on 1.1.27 without any problems, but on Marc's suggestion i will put it back to 3ms
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it must be different. on the 1.1.44 i used 2.5ms because of the multiplier. i didnt know and so far i have been using the same on 1.1.27 without any problems, but on Marc's suggestion i will put it back to 3ms
Can you send your Megatune version to me? I use the 1.1.27 Megatune Beta3.And i dont have the MAT Retard ???
I use 3.07ms Dwell
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who said you dont??
mat retard is implemented in the firmware.It is not something added on by me.
thanks for the dwell
vasilis
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Who uses the 1.1.44 with Audi trigger? And 16x14 Maps?
My car dont start with this on testing with 1.1.44 or 1.1.50 :-( Why?
I will use a newer Firmware with 16x14 Maps with the original Audi Trigger Setup.
Thanks
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hey, i was on 1.1.44 and now went back to 1.127 and the car works great.
i followed the advice of not going into a firmware that it is not official!!
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hey, i was on 1.1.44 and now went back to 1.127 and the car works great.
i followed the advice of not going into a firmware that it is not official!!
Do you use the 16x14 Tables with your 1.1.27 ?
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yes!!!
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yes!!!
Which uses you.The 1.1.27 beta2 or beta3 or beta6?
Uses you firmware from the Megatune folder?
When i click on generate-config16x14.bat than i have error messages :-(
Can you upload your Folder with your files?
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i use 1.1.27 beta6
when i upload an msq i only get 2 error messages.
program runs fine however.
what would you like me to send you?
here is my email: [email protected]
let me know
vasilis
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Hello,
here is now an art exchange business ;-)
I can sent my MSQ file with the 12x12 tables ;-)
I write an Email to you
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Im happy how the car works now and how idle is managed.
i have discussed with a friend of mine who is in electronics and we will try and fabricate a good 14gage cable that will go from the car's battery directly to the ECU plug, through a relay to connect to the ignition switch and a fuse.
The aim is to actually eliminate as much as possible any voltage drop which is secondary to slim cableing,therefore allowing the resistors that lie in VEMS already to act upon much quicker in electrical drop.
Im hoping that with this mod the idle will be better managed when all the electrical systems are on,since the current from the battery will not be dropped as much.
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today,
i went out for a drive and did some modifications on the boost settings, however i noticed that although i havent touched the idle settings, the car was idling with lamda 1.05-1.06 while previously was @ 0.97 to 1.01.
i dont use EGO correction on idle and i was startled to see this.On the other hand, EGTs were fine on idle but the idle itself was not as smooth.
i dont understand why this would happen. The IATs were not that different than other times in general,other than the weather being a bit foggy and humid.
i didnt change much the VE settings for now,i just used EGO correction from 700rpm so that at least i would have a proper lamda value.
can someone give me some input on this?
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Hi,
The air will be denser under those weather conditions, so the extra air will make it run a little leaner.
Cheers,
Gavin :)
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what do you reccommend doing in these conditions?
i wouldnt like to change back and forth settings on vems for this...
i now used EGO correction on idle so at least i get a proper lamda there, but i had to increase my idle bins on VE from 70 to 72.
should i just leave them as it is, or put them back to 70 and ego on?
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Hi,
Ego correction should be best as it will do the work for you.
Cheers,
Gavin :)
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ok.will do that!
for the time being ill keep the ve:72 and see how it goes
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how big of a difference can 3-4 deg of advance can make in power output?
im having a puzzle. According to my perfomance box runs,if i compare runs with motronic and VEMS i get as much as 20hp difference on a range from 5000-6300rpm where motronic produces most of it's power, although VEMS produces usually around 20-30hp less on those areas.
differences are about 0.1bar of boost less on VEMS (maybe) and about 3-4deg of timing difference( mot:20-21deg and VEMS 16-17deg)
can those differences justify the amount of power difference?
runs were made on different days, but on same road.I know that temperatures play a role as well, there might(not sure) have been a bit colder on the motronic
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20HP from 3-4deg timing change is totally realistic.
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Oh good.
that is good to know
i had to stiffen the wastegate spring a bit to match the boost i was getting on motronic and now i believe it drives better.
i will leave the timing as is for now, although motronic had 22.50advance on high revs and it also gave +2 deg on lower IATs, i only use 16-18deg for safety reasons.
i wonder if that feature will be available on an official firmware on vems as i believe that lower iats should be available to provide more timing and not having to use the highest possible timing on the map,and expect that to be retarded depending on the IATs graph.
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i wonder if that feature will be available on an official firmware on vems as i believe that lower iats should be available to provide more timing and not having to use the highest possible timing on the map,and expect that to be retarded depending on the IATs graph.
that firmware 1.1.50 and newer has.
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yes i read something about that, but i would like VEMS people to actually make a NEW OFFICIAL firmware update, as soooo many different things have been optimized and noone can actually use them until they are deemed that they are working properly.
how much more testing is there needed????
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yes i read something about that, but i would like VEMS people to actually make a NEW OFFICIAL firmware update, as soooo many different things have been optimized and noone can actually use them until they are deemed that they are working properly.
how much more testing is there needed????
i don't known, but i have 6 car on 1.1.47v2 and one was 1.1.50, then 1.1.51, thomorow 1.1.55 :) without any problem.
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welll i started off with the 1.1.44 and had problems.
went back to 1.1.27 and car is running beautifully.
i think it is vital that VEMS provides a good working and official new version
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update:
after having the ECU off for 10 days,as i was away, when i reinstalled it i noticed that even without changing any settings, idle was higher than normal on a warm engine.
i switched the EGO off to see where the lamda was, and it was lean(1.12). I then took the VE bins from 72 to 75 and that helped things a little bit,but i also had to use the idle valve pwm from 16 to 19 in order to bring the idle back down.
After a few drives, i noticed that i was able to go back to my original settings,meaning: VE=72 and idle pwm=17.
Question: Since enviromental factors are not changed all that much and it is not that different, could the fact that the car had been still for 10 days outdoors be the cause of increased humidity in the engine,thus causing a lean mixture that then resolved?
How can vems me setup in a way that can avoid these enviromental changes?
Or , is this something else?
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i have setup one of the misc outputs for the evap system.
however it is not able to be setted so that evap can start above 70C or normal operating temperature. Is there a way to do that?
thanks
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You could try using the Water Pump configuration, that gives temperature dependent triggering.
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so basically if i use the settings i259 and channel 6, it will enable the temperature function on that setting?
i will try that!
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what do i use in 'Hysterisis' ??
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Hysterisis is there to provide a band of operation for things like the fan, without it what you'd get is the fan switching on at the on value, then turning off when the temperature fell below it. So if you set the on value to, say 70 and hysteresis to 5 it would turn on at 70 and then off when the coolant temp falls below 65. If you want it to turn off the instant that coolant falls below 70 then use a hysteresis of 0
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great! i will try that!
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however....
if i use the misc output + the water fan together, will they work under all the settings i use? or will it just open the carbon canister valve above the deisired temp and keep it open continuesly without taking into account the misc settings?
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Don't use the Misc setting, just the water pump one, the two triggers will conflict.
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rob, the carbon canister valve should not work above 100pka ,so i cannot use the one water fan output as this would mean that the valve would work under boost and you dont want fuel fumes under pressure on the inlet manifold according to manufacturers.
the valve in OEM systems only operates under vaccum, hence the misc output should only be used then,since the 2 triggers cannot work together.
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after a few tests, i realise that because this misc output does not have the ability to give any duty cycle variaton and it just opens the valve 100% the car feels a bit wobbly when i use it on light cruising conditions with TPS value up to 15%. Therefore i will try and only use it under deceleration only which does not affect anything.
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question:
Car starts up nicely BUT it is too rich at the first 30sec to 1 min on cold start
settings i have are:
Cranking pulse PW: 12(cold) / 6(warm)
afterstart enrichment: 22%(cold) / 16.1% (warm)
cycles: 102
when i take EGO off, i notice that my warmup enrichemtnts are ok and slightly to the lean side,which i dont mind cause with EGO on,everything is ok.
Should i reduce the cranking pulse or the afterstart enrichment more?
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Don't touch your cranking, that fuel will be through the engine in no time.
An afterstart of 102 cycles will be over in a few seconds (6.8s @ 900rpm)
If I was looking to clean this up I'd set the feedback to be off until 40degrees and tune the fuel with the warm-up enrichments.
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when you say feedback, do you mean the EGO correction?
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i tried reducing the afterstart % to 20 from 22 for cold and it seems to be working better.
my warm up enrichments are already quite low,so i don know why the car is quite that rich at the beggining. It also seems to last only a few secs so i bet it was the afterstart enrichment rather than the warm up enrichments.
will do more checks!
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what do i have to change when it cranks up fine,but stalls after the first start? (then if i start it again it works fine)
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You've been playing with your afterstart enrichment, and it stalls afterstart... ;)
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hmm,... indeed. i will then increase the time it lasts,but reduce the % of enrichment,to see the results
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Not sure but i put the % back to 25 and the cycles to 120.Also made a change to the afterstart revs to 250 on idle as well as that lasting about 5secs to see.
initial thoughts are that it works... lets seee
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Does anyone have any settings for the boost valve on the audi S2/RS2 that work?
im not able to configure the PID well enough to get the boost im asking for from VEMS.It appears that i always get a boost drop on lower gears,and only on higher gears does that change a bit and boost is kept better.
I dont want to go to boost controllers,esp, if a new firmware might be able to control the valve better.But until then,is there any other settings that anyone is confomrtable with,and with what wastegate spring?
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I corrected the timing on his map (it was indeed off, that happened when I moved to using the hall inverter which shifted the value for TDC after the trigger). I've sent him the correct details for his ecu. The settings he was running had his curve retarded by ~5 degrees.
What setting was wrong in Megatune?
Are we heading to 1.1.44?
1.1.44 If the error-free and runs on the Audi?
the new target with eventually be the 1.1.5x branch. I'm comfortable with 1.1.44 until 1.1.5x is stable. The setting that changed is under primary trigger settings. TDC after the trigger. I had it set to 66, should be 56.
I use in Megatune with 1.1.27 : TDC after the trigger 62!
62° this is correct!
56 was timing light verified for Vasilis. Do you have a cam hall inverter?
Yes I have the Cam Hall inverter under the Camshaftwheel.Aber whether this is on you now I can not exactly say.
Trigger tooth when a 0 is disabled or is then on???
My settings are:
TDC after the Trigger 62
Number of teeth on Wheel 90
Trigger tooth 0
Next Trigger tooth 18
TDC What settings do you use?
I have the TDC (62 °) with the Timing light determined.
Sorry for my bad english ;-)
Hello.
I have an Audi with Vems AAN box and 3b flywheel, bought more than a year ago and it was delivered with this:
TDC after the Trigger 66
Trigger tooth 8 !?!? but it works fine, have they made any change in the box's now so only the new box should have 0 and the old 8 or should i change mine to Trigger tooth 0 ?
I have a friend to that have the same config like me and works fine to!
I use 1.1.27beta4
Another friend bought one this year and got this:
TDC after the Trigger 58
Trigger tooth 0
.
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it depends if you use the hall inverter or not.
im going to doublecheck the trigger setting next weekend as im going to a trusted garage to do it for me.
hopefully it will clear a few things out for me.
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It appears that this trigger setting is variable. Im hoping to finally check it on my car this week,but i did a test.
i changed mine from 56 to 57 the other day,without changing the spark table. The car on normal driving felt to be more 'restricted'.
i then increased the table by 1deg, and noticed that now the car is more lively again. I did keep the higher spark range low, and the car didnt knock obviously but it did seem to be going slower than before.
Also the table now looks to be more close to the motronic table i have,and i think that the strobe light will give me the final answer for it!
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It appears that this trigger setting is variable. Im hoping to finally check it on my car this week,but i did a test.
i changed mine from 56 to 57 the other day,without changing the spark table. The car on normal driving felt to be more 'restricted'.
i then increased the table by 1deg, and noticed that now the car is more lively again. I did keep the higher spark range low, and the car didnt knock obviously but it did seem to be going slower than before.
Also the table now looks to be more close to the motronic table i have,and i think that the strobe light will give me the final answer for it!
Hello,
I have set the Sparktable to 0 ° and then with the strobe light lucking whether the times vote.And then TDC nachgeregelt from 58 to 62!
How you use your knock control?Original Vems control unit???
Greets Marcus
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It appears that this trigger setting is variable. Im hoping to finally check it on my car this week,but i did a test.
i changed mine from 56 to 57 the other day,without changing the spark table. The car on normal driving felt to be more 'restricted'.
i then increased the table by 1deg, and noticed that now the car is more lively again. I did keep the higher spark range low, and the car didnt knock obviously but it did seem to be going slower than before.
Also the table now looks to be more close to the motronic table i have,and i think that the strobe light will give me the final answer for it!
Hello,
I have set the Sparktable to 0 ° and then with the strobe light lucking whether the times vote.And then TDC nachgeregelt from 58 to 62!
How you use your knock control?Original Vems control unit???
Greets Marcus
did you turn off spark idle control?
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It appears that this trigger setting is variable. Im hoping to finally check it on my car this week,but i did a test.
i changed mine from 56 to 57 the other day,without changing the spark table. The car on normal driving felt to be more 'restricted'.
i then increased the table by 1deg, and noticed that now the car is more lively again. I did keep the higher spark range low, and the car didnt knock obviously but it did seem to be going slower than before.
Also the table now looks to be more close to the motronic table i have,and i think that the strobe light will give me the final answer for it!
Hello,
I have set the Sparktable to 0 ° and then with the strobe light lucking whether the times vote.And then TDC nachgeregelt from 58 to 62!
How you use your knock control?Original Vems control unit???
Greets Marcus
did you turn off spark idle control?
yes i have it :-)
I don't use it:-)
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if i turn off the spark idle control then how will i be able to check the spark angle at idle at least? the revs may be going up and down!
i thought that by doing the check with the strobe light and getting the reading off the engine, i would compare that to the reading that vems has, and if it is not the same,then i would have to change the trigger.
isnt that right?
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even if the engine is not super steady you should just make the advance in the idle area 0´s or 10´s
then the advance will not change and you can read it off the strobe light.
If it´s off , adjust until it´s right.
Then you can turn on adjustable advance idle control.
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Thanks Gunnar!
i will make the change and report back!
i now got the turbosmart boost solenoid valve to try and im thinking of connecting it this way:
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/vasp3690/turbosmart1.jpg)
i was wondering if anyone else has tried this one before,and if so, what settings on the boost control did you use?This method of connection is recommended by turbosmart for engines that have higher backpressure,so as to keep the boost drop on high rpm to it's minimum.
thanks
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Finally, did the timing test.
ignition based timing disabled, i had good idle with 14deg. Strobe light showed 13.7deg.
I didnt change anything.left everything as it was. I think it is close enough
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recently i have been getting a bit of oscillating idle and it is not related to the wideband,but it is related on the IAC unfortunatelly.
So far it used to work quite efficiently.However now when i test it on warm engine and with EGO off, i have the idle barely oscilating, very small amount, of about 50rpm however the lamda values fluctuate from 0.95 to 1.05 lamda and that is why the oscillation is there.
I tried a few different settings here and there,and it seems that ego correction cannot compensate for that oscillation,and the oscillation is related to the IAC,cause once i turn that off, the lamda is stable.
I use as IAC pwm speed : 2
and steps of 100. I tried various different values on that,and it didnt make much of a difference.
if i increase the pwm speed the IAC dies when speed is above 6 or 7.
On idle pwm banks i have about 15 and that is the highest i can use to keep the idle from plummiting when the AC is turned on.
My spark @ idle is 16-17deg and when i reduced it to 12 it seemed to be more stable.
does anyone know why the IAC is causing that amount of oscillation on the idle?
Also if i were to completelly take off the IAC, what would the best settings be to have as lowest idle as possible? cause so far i can only get it to 1050rpm.
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Two things. Only iac speed normaly usable is 0.
And - have you diode instaled parallel to IAC valve?
Gints
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diode is fitted there yes.
i have never tried 0. What would this mean? only other settings i have seen were never 0.
thanks, i will give that a go as well
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0 gives smother PWM signal as possible. all others have interrupts for some reason. 0 is same as 64 AFAIR.
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havent tried it yet.will report back
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Well.,
indeed the pwm=0 makes things more easy.
i used 14.50deg spark on idle and 110 steps to move.
Idle now is much more steady,around 900-950rpm and drops very little with AC on.
Also my idle pwm @ 71.1C is 17 for now. I have noticed that using the ignition based timing only on warm up and slowly give the IAC more speed as the engine reaches it's correct temperature,has a good effect on cold starts and everything.
SO ill keep it like that for now and see how it goes.
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Post up your screenshots of the idle control related windows.
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Here you go:
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/vasp3690/idle1.jpg)
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/vasp3690/idle2.jpg)
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/vasp3690/idle3.jpg)
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another test done today all looks good!
i got the lcd from VEMS today and im waiting for a custom made aluminium plate to fit on the main dash.I tested it and it looks very nice!
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Hi vasilis
Try this
Idle settings:
Speed/pwm= 0
Max steps to extend = 255
Tps value for idle threshold = 2
Idle settings advance
P= 40
I = 2
D= 21
Integral decrease limit = 12
Integral increase limit = 12
Idle control pwm table
15,5= 57
26,6= 51
37,7= 46
54,4= 42
71,1= 39
Position at –40= 40%
Position at 77= 100%
Regards
Peter jensen
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peter,
thanks, i have tried the settings when you posted them on s2forum. they were no good on my rs2. idle was all over the place and very little control with AC.
with the settings set as they are, i have everything pretty much sorted. Also idle is very much depended on what spark you have on idle so it is not correct to always have the same settings.
also PID integral decreace limit should always be slightly smaller than increase as this tends to keep idle less frequent in dipping when the fan kicks in or in AC operation.
With i P of 40 idle on my car tends to oscilate after a disturbance.
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the only thing that sounds more logical on those settings is the IAC pwm on cold and warm, however when i try to use those settings i get a big dip on the idle as soon as it cranks,although it may not stall.However when i have it the other way around, it seems much more stable
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well turbosmart solenoid is installed with the configuration that i posted before.
results are fantastic!! boost is now much more precise, hits the rpm vs map table 100% and only drops a little on 3d and 2nd gear on high rpm which is normal for my small turbo(too much back pressure!!), so i think i will stick with this one.Its a winner!!
anyone that needs the settings i used let me know!
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Post them up and your solenoid part number.
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solenoid is made by mac and it is the turbosmart 3 port valve.
as for settings i use rpm/map.i will post them tomorrow
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(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/vasp3690/boost1.jpg)
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/vasp3690/boost2.jpg)
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/vasp3690/boost3.jpg)
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IMO last table has nothing to do with above settings. Boost DC table is for alternative Boost control strategy. Or can be used for some other purpose where PWM needed.
I prefer use BoostAlt closed loop strategy. Easy and straightforward calibration, bulletproof.
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im not sure that VEMS uses it this way or not but i have read that megatune uses the first horizontal line from the boost table as reference and this is why i have been using the values there.I could be wrong, but nonetheless i did fiddle with them.
whenever i tried to use boost alt with duty cycles it never seemed to work no matter what values i gave to the duty cycle. I presume that it has to do with the settings, but in the end this setup seems to work so its a keeper. It may be tweaked even more,but for now it is much better than the OEM solenoid
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i believe that e boost drop i have is 100% related to backpressure from the turbo and it is not worth trying to play around with the settings anymore. I can get the boost steady on 1.9bar on 3d gear all the way to the red line, but that would mean that the upper gears would go skyrocketing then.
the only way i could keep high boost on motronic was to stiffen the wastegate spring that would act progressively.By that i mean that i had it set in a way that on low revs it gave me 0.4bar of mechanical boost and as the revs got higher it went all the way up to 1.5bar to the redline. Now that kept the boost on 1.75 to 1.8bar to the red line but it wasnt safe to run that high mechanical boost. So i prefer in the end to keep the 0.4bar spring on the wastegate and get a small boost drop on lower gears, rather than keep the whole thing stressed.
since the next turbo will have much less backpressure,i expect this whole thing to settle anyway.
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after doing a few more runs, i can say that im very pleased now with the results from VEMS. I havent used motronic for more than 4 months and i dont think i will need to.
as the weather is getting colder i have made some adjustments for cold start and they seem to work nice. Also im very pleased with the boost control as well. As far as timing and advance, im expecting a cable to 'listen' to knock sensors but so far the car feels and runs nicely without any hesitation and everything seems to be OK!
Next on the list is to fit the LCD from vems and hopefully see when the next official version will be available to make use of the new features.
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a big thanks to Gunni for his prompt replies on my recent misfire problem. Apparently the car had an earth cable and a spark plug slightly loose. Everything back to normal again!
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i have read somewhere that the cold start PW of the injectors should be something like 80% above the reg_fuel number in order to have a proper cold start or something?
my reg_fuel is 6 and i recently increaced the cold start injection so that @ 10-12C temp it reads about 11.0ms. it seemed to start better(im on alternate injections at crank) but then when i wanted to start moving the car and pressed the accel. due to probably the accel enrichments, and warm up enrichments the car dropped the revs almost stalling. I figure this is due to being too rich. Should i decrease the afterstart enrichment to compensate or the warm up enrichment?
EGO starts when temp goes to 30C so basically i need to fine tune that area a bit.
when the car starts lamda is about 0.93-0.94 with warmup enrich.being at 107-106
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If you look through your logs then you can see if it´s still in afterstart enrichment or if it´s in warmup.
Then you can know which to look at.
If it´s very cold then I´d take a look at the cold accel factor. It may be to high.
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i had never thought of that!
cold multiplication factor is indeed 80%
cold added factor was 1.5ms
should i make it 60%? and 1.0ms?
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Depending on the size of your injectors I´d first lower the added factor.
Only test one variable at a time. When you change many variables then you won´t know which was the right one to change.
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yes you are right
i tried the 80+ 1.0 instead of 1.5ms and seems to work better.
now on 10C external temp i have 11.5ms of crank pulse and the car struggled less to start,which was nice!
i will look into it a bit further!
thanks
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Here is my LCD display to be used on the car
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/vasp3690/DROP-00A510F5.jpg)
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Looks good! 8)
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i tried the accel. settings and there was minor improvement. is it correct what i am thinking of the rich mixture? when pressing the accel pedal, the car goes to stall. is that due to rich mix, or ,lean due to cold humidity buildup? I need to try increasing the cold enrichment factor to see the difference.
will report back!
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apparenty i think the accel enrichment was too low. I increased it marginably and now it reacts much better on a ver cold engine. small press of the accel,(say when you have to drive off quickly) does not drop the rpm.I think what i was experiencing was the effect of fuel not vaporising enough to be burnt in the mixture.
on the lighter side...
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/vasp3690/IMAG0194.jpg)
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/vasp3690/IMAG0197.jpg)
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You might want to change that to display page 4.
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what do you mean?
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The information displayed on that page is alot better and coordinated.
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i tried various pages and i cannot seem to find a better one. on 4 it states VE values along with other numbers im not familiar with.
is there any vems page i can look into the various displays available?
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i found a list online,but there isnt a screen that displays more than the 0 on my unit.
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I meant this look.
I like the organised look.
(http://www.vems.hu/files/MembersPage/MattiasSandgren/Lcd/vems_blue_custom_display.jpg)
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it doesnt bring it up on mine.
at least i couldnt find it
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Well page 4 should be the closest one.
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ill take a photo of each page to show you. Page 4 has nothing like that one!!
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yup,just verified, none of the displays up to 10 have anything that matches that photo. Could it be something with the ECU settings itself?
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..or maybe fw version dependent?
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or that
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IMO clean LCD page comes from 1.1.44
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does it work in vemstune as well?
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With the help of Gunni, i have been datalogging and trying to make the VE table as best as possible so as to use only the Ego correction up to 100-110kpa. Above that it will only be dealt with VE map and accel enrichment. Yesterdays first tests proved to be quite succesfull! I think EGO is really difficult to work on high revs and on full throttle and it may have been leaning my mixture quite a bit for some reason.
anyway, it seems to be better now,and more tests will be done through the week...
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I said leave it off above 80kpa.
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:) :)
i know you said that, but sometimes when i use cruise control on the car and there is a need to go a slightly elevated road, on steady cruise it goes up to 100kpa and i prefer to have subtle corrections done there. The VE map should be close to correct lamdas anyway there.
Also during cruising at 120-130Km/h im in the 40-90 area and i dont want ego going on and off all the time. Wont that drive it more mad??
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It doesn´t go on and off.
It tries to maintain the lambda target. The quality of the VE tuning will the defining factor of how "mad"
the ego is.
I´d expect no more then 2% incorrectness at such loads and the ego control will have no problem correcting that.
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ok point taken!
once i have all VE table bins correctly managed, then i can get ego to go lower as well.
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With a good VE table is possible switch off the EGO correction against ambient temperature, battery voltage fluctuation?
There is compensation for these but how perfect, and how much well-tuned??
The mat correction is hardwired in the firmware before 1.1.5x, and we can't get good settings for injector vbatt correction, so the lambda is never fully perfect. Of course the EGO correction set between tight margin:+-5%
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well how much are the injectors off depending on battery fluctuations?
all motronics depend on fueling maps to compensate high rev/boost as MAFs are too small and lamdas are narrow band.
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i think i have managed it I havent had much luck on testing high revs on high gears,but so far the EGTs and the car itself is running much smoother with the ego off. the VE map was quite on the rich side which would explain the EGO working overtime though
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I know that this is a more or less vague question and it has to do with how close you are within the best timing for more torgue line,but i was wondering this.
Say you want to have a limit to the EGTs so that your exhaust manifold and turbo hotside can cope of 920C.
If you use 18deg of advance and 0.76 to 0.74 lamda to keep the temps at around 900-920C, would turning down the timing to 16deg for example make any difference in the EGTs? I mean, would they get lower so that i could actualy lean the mixture and go towards the 0.79lamda?
I have been told, and its been written here as well that the less timing you use, the more the EGTs will get higher. If that is true then does it mean that in order to get the lamda to 0.79 i would have to increase the timing instead of lowering it? (all that of course keeping in mind that the car doesnt knock.)
Am i going crazy??
Obviously the best thing to do is test these things and log them.
I plan to do a test this weekend (weather permitting) on 4th gear pulls with one settings being : high timing + lamda 0.74 and try and see what the power figure will be, and then try and lower the timing to see what happens to the EGT,and try to adjust the lamda as well if possible to see if there is any difference in power figures.
Reason im doing this, is because on the motronic map,as i have mentioned before, i had loads of timing, but on the lamda,on 6th gear the car was extra rich (0.70) and it never gave any problems or issues. However, being MAF related boost, on 4th gear i would get around 0.75-0.76 lamda initially and after that it would go richer as well. However timing there was 20+deg even when hitting 1.9bar of boost.
So im trying to figure out what is best. Big timing values and extra rich OR adjusted timing to a point that you only use 0.80lamda?
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If you lower timing you will see higher EGT´s.
The way to tune is .
Try and find MBT and use as little fuel as possible . The possibility of getting MBT at 1.9bar on street fuel is not that good.
So you´ll have to settle with just below knock as safe as possible. That means usually to run overly rich to pick up a few degrees of timing.
But that is not set in stone. It may be that there will be no difference in tendancy to knock if you run 0.8-0.73 lambda. It´s just something that needs to be found by testing.
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so basically if im using 0.73 lamda and 18deg of advance to keep from knocking AND keep egts to a level that are acceptable for the manifold and hotside, the way to reduce the egts more would be to increase timing?
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right, i think the VE table is much better now. more secure. I wont tamper with the spark table, as it produces good values and no knock, so it will do the job for now.
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so basically if im using 0.73 lamda and 18deg of advance to keep from knocking AND keep egts to a level that are acceptable for the manifold and hotside, the way to reduce the egts more would be to increase timing?
You never increase timing above MBT. You tune to MBT and that´s it.
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well without any headphones for knock at least now, i will have to guess the MBT
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did some runs today with the perfomance box and i noticed that above 6000rpm at 260-275kpa i had to actually reduce the VE table by 2 (from 90-87-88) otherwise the lamda went all the way to 0.70 and lower. Also i increased the spark as well and EGTs were lowered as well,without any problems.
i think it runs better now.
i must refine my excel for the use of the perfomance box. It appears that im doing something wrong...
i have according to that about 570Nm highest torgue around 3600rpm. then i have 500Nm @ 5600rpm, and 400Nm at 6300rpm.
Not bad concidering that the original rs2 has 410Nm as highest point!!
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what kind of performance box do you use?
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racelogic perfomance box. same company that makes the vbox.
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well without any headphones for knock at least now, i will have to guess the MBT
MBT and knock margin is different things. It can or can not overlays. At high boost levels most plausible it overlays. And in this case knock listening is enough, but MBT is not reached.
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so you are saying that on low boost levels you can more easily run on MBT and knocking would never be a problem, but on high boost levels the amount of boost is increasing compression ratio to a point where the MBT is not reached but the knock threshold is?
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Pretty much spot-on.
If you have ever heard the expression that the timing is "det limited" they're saying that they couldn't run the advance to MBT because the engine would detonate before that point.
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That goes for most engine setups.
They are usually det limited as the load goes higher and because people can still gain power with higher load and without reaching MBT for that load and rpm they do. As long as the tuning is safe there isn´t anything wrong with that.
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For better idle control i changed a coolant bin on the map to allow the use of a temp of 80C CLT. VEMS seems to raise the idle speed when the engine is hotter for some reason, and although it makes sense as the fan will be kicking in sooner and it might cause a drop in idle, i didnt like it when the idle was around 1000-1050rpm. So now i can use one more value on the idle PWM and so can retain the idle low.
The PID control i use on the idle settings does the job nicely in keeping it steady. Ill report when i have more tests!
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much improved idle with even more fine tuning!
on the other side, i managed to connect to the 1.1.27 using vemstune for the first time. I must say that it did crash a couple of times to begin with,but it worked in the end. The spark gauge was not working though.
still like the megatune enviroment a bit more though
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Doing some datalogs after removing the MAF i noticed that i was getting overboost cutout. I dont understand why,but i was reaching my set limit of 310kpa.
now i have resetted the boost figures and everything works fine again.
I also noticed that in 1.1.27 the boost offset figure goes from 16 to 14, and does not allow me to use figure 15.However it does reduce the amount of boost i see when i do change it to 15 and burn to ECU.... strange..
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Doing some datalogs after removing the MAF i noticed that i was getting overboost cutout. I dont understand why,but i was reaching my set limit of 310kpa.
Becouse MAF is restrict for air flow.
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i have really noticed that after 5800-6000rpm the lamda becomes really low,even with the VE remaining stable.It goes down to 0.70.So i started reducing the VE values and got it to 0.73-0.75.(from 250-280kpa)
Does that mean that the cams are running out of ability to keep the volumetric efficiency going? or is it that the turbo is running out of juice on those areas?
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also on one of my 3d gear pulls, i noticed that i had a minor misfire. When i went back to logviewer, y dwell was 3.36ms which is what it is normally and the rpm signal just went to 453478rpm and came back.
anyone has a clue what that means?
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i have really noticed that after 5800-6000rpm the lamda becomes really low,even with the VE remaining stable.It goes down to 0.70.So i started reducing the VE values and got it to 0.73-0.75.(from 250-280kpa)
Does that mean that the cams are running out of ability to keep the volumetric efficiency going? or is it that the turbo is running out of juice on those areas?
What is the compressor inducer size, your injector size and duty cycle and is the intake temparature rising rapidly?
Most likely it´s the cams/head package running out of breath or just to much backpressure from the turbine.
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also on one of my 3d gear pulls, i noticed that i had a minor misfire. When i went back to logviewer, y dwell was 3.36ms which is what it is normally and the rpm signal just went to 453478rpm and came back.
anyone has a clue what that means?
That sounds like a trigger error.
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the turbo is the GT3071R with 0.63AR
compr. inducer size is 53/7x i dont remember..
injector size is 440@3bar and audi has a 3.8bar fuel pressure regulator. I dont know how to calculate the injector duty cycle.
intake temperature is actuall pretty good. at the beggining of the run is 13C, goes to 18.9C and can rise to 38C(but today it only wnet to 34C).
i definitelly have quite a bit of backpressure from the turbine,as it is concidered to be small.
what does that trigger mean,and should i do anything about it?
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Duty cycle you can easily find in datalog of power run.
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is that the duty cycle1?
then i can see it going even above 100%, sometimes 107.esp on 3d gears after 6200rpm.On higher gears it stays around 88-90%.
that doesnt sound right to me...
Also how can the duty cycle be more than 100??
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It´s calculated duty cycle from known PM and RPM.
Looks like your hitting your injectos maximum.
Depending on your BSFC you should be seeing 400-450hp with that duty cycle and that is about the end of the compressor as well
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i see.
when i decreaced the VE on the top end to get leaner than 0.72 lamda it seemed to get less than 100% duty cycle.
I always thought that i would be going leaner at the top end when my injectors were maxed out.In this case my injectors are maxing out although i dont want them to!
anyway, good thing i have the 630cc injectors on the bench for the next turbo!
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what is that trigger error though?
and can anything be done for it?
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is that the duty cycle1?
then i can see it going even above 100%, sometimes 107.esp on 3d gears after 6200rpm.On higher gears it stays around 88-90%.
that doesnt sound right to me...
Also how can the duty cycle be more than 100??
May be on first gears EgoCorrection is too slow to reach target (too rich VE table)? What was Ego correction on highest gears?
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ego correction is off above 100kpa
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Then at same rpms and same boost same duty cycle is expected.
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Yes i noticed that now.
i have more than 100% duty cycle above 6500rpm and lamda going from around 0.72-0.75. I guess if i ran it a bit leaner the injectors could cope.
Anyway, that is good to find out eventually! so no higher boost running for me until i fit the 630cc injectors!
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will upload a video shortly of my idle. did some more tests today and eliminated some early knock on the onset of boost.marc swanssons knock cable works like a treat.
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here you go
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR13Wx9h2-0
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I did some runs today, and managed to get the 4th gear pull properly.
the road had a 4meter downhill incline from start to finish of the run and the IATs were 9C at start and 23C at finish.
small amount of water/methanol mix was used, which starts from 240kpa and sprays total injector capasity at about 400kpa. I have setted it this way cause i dont want too much mixture to be used anyway.
I calculated the results using the perfomance box and 15% driveterain losses, or 18% losses (4wheel drive). All the rest of the losses(rolling, air) are calculated in the graphs and power is estimated by using acceleration differences from speed vs time and grouped at 10 values(as the perfomance box gives you a number at every 0.1sec on the excel export).
Boost used was 304kpa overboost and 270kpa at 6400rpm.
really pleased with the results!
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/vasp3690/15losses.jpg)
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/vasp3690/18losses.jpg)
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That engine is choked at higher rpm´s
nothing a bigger turbo will not fix.
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Yup! i hope that nice holset will fix that!!!
Super HX40 ok?
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That´ll be perfect.
Same turbo I´m going to be using on a couple of M50B25´s
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Brilliant!! then you'll know what to expect when we meet!!
i was amazed how a little bit of pinging can reduce the torgue! I reduced the timing about 2deg, no pinging now, and wow! 600Nm of torgue!
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Yesterday I was tuning a NA car. And hit some pinging, the power graph dropped instantly.
I´ve never seen pinging before on the dyno so it was funny to see it behave like that.
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as an added security i have enabled the water/meth injection(small quantity,but crucial) to keep it under control. Although even without it it does not ping anymore.
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it seems these days that i always have to readjust the boost as it keeps going higher and higher all the time.The weather is getting colder and i wonder if that is the case.
yesterday, on 6th, went WOT and it reached my fuel cut @ 316kpa again.
i will just reduce the offset today and leave it like that.
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MAT temps are going from -1 to 14C with water injection on a 8C outside temperature!! (up to 5500rpm) niicee!!!
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Can you explain and picturise your water injection and control method
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water injection is snowperfomance, boost controlled via its own controller and a vaccum hose connected to the controller.
The Pump is located 2/3 from the bottom of the washer bottle tank, and the injector is located opposite the throttle body.
The water/methanol i use is less than 70/30, and the spray pattern starts from around 240kpa and tops off on more than 350-370kpa. In other words, i only spray a very small amount of the full potential of the injector and the pump, because i dont want the place flooded.
the only potential problem is that the MAT sensor is about 30cm away from the WI injector and part of the reason i see so low MAT is that the steam is that close. Ideally you need the injector further away so that it has time to mix with the inlet air coming from the intercooler.
The exhaust temperatures are not very altered, but at least this way i get less ignition retard on higher revs and more stable power.
i dont have any recent pictures, but ill show you when we meet! :)
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a bit more leaner on the top end and some more measurements done, i managed to get the hp above 400 for good now!
EGTs are good within limits as well!
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3d gear today!!!
same road, same more or less conditions, less downhill(1.6m)
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/vasp3690/13123dgear.jpg)
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and here is a holset HX40 (56mm compressor wheel,hence non Super40) on 3d gear, 1.3bar of boost and mild tuning settings
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/vasp3690/bill132.jpg)
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after a few trips i noticed that cruising speed with x amount of timing gave me a bit more EGTs than i would like for a long run. So i increased the timing a bit without any issues and vualla! Now i can run up to 3200-3400 rpm on 6th gear which is about 140-160kms with having 800C on the turbo hotside. That is acceptable i think cause it varies from 750 to 850 depending on the motorways, but at least it wont be more than that.
Before it was varying around the 850C area which i didnt like
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what is the timing advance and load?
800C sounds high to me for cruising.
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well cruising with 150-160kms/h is more than 85mph.
if i cruise with the limit of 70mph it drops to around 750C.
timing from 2500-3500 goes from 35-38deg on the 60-90kpa area (rougly) and the lamda is from 1.02 to 1 on those areas.
i know that 800 sounds high, but the EGT sensor is not on the downpipe,but on the turbo hotside,where the Exhaust manifold meets the hotside,so its the bottleneck of the exhaust system.
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Anyway it is a lot.
At 60Kpa you can advance significant more than 35-38deg. And 35deg at 100KPa and 3500 should be in the ballpark.
But it can be good idea to run little richer at 100Kpa.
Gints
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Hi
you think? i might get it more than 38 then, and try it out. It still goes down on those timing anyway.
In any case with this small turbo, it is bound to have quite a bit more EGTs anyway. The next one should be much better.
When you say 'significant more' can you elaborate? such as, what rpm, what pka?
Mine start at 33 @ 2000rpm and climb to 40deg up to 4000rpm (more or less), Usually when im on 6th gear on cruising speed,i usually have from 60-90kpa and lamda as mentioned above. The EGTs esp when on cruise control are about 740-800C. (running at 120Km/h)
If i cruise at 150-160km/h then it would go to 800-810C. Now that i increased the timing it shoud drop a bit more.BUT to run like that i have to go above 3000rpm which i already have less than 1.00 lamda (3000-3500rpm lamda values go from 1.00 to 0.96).
I will do more fine tuning on the next setup anyway with the knock cable, but this is how the motronic use to work, which i tried to match. Of course there is always room for improvement.
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Try and bump it 3-5degrees around the cruise spot and see how it likes it.
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so go into the 40ies then. Ok will do it gradually and report!
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1st test was succesfull. Now from 2500-3000rpm bins the timing goes from 36.75 to 39.00 which are the the areas of cruising for me and usually keeps it about 38deg. with EGTs going even further down,being stable at mid 750C. from 3000-3500, timing is set up to 40deg, and EGTs do not go over 800C. Engine 'sounds' fine, no signs of stiffening or struggling!
I may take it a bit further to check for more room.
thanks guys!
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im happy with the EGTs at the moment,but wont tamper with them anymore as i expect them to get better on the new setup with the reduced packpressure.
the service parts have arrived for next year so everything is set!
Holset is being modified and balanced...
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damn this good weather makes boost really high! 6th gear from 4000rpm reached 320kpa!! with a cutout though.
so recalibrated the boost control once again!
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update:
timing curve recalibrated as i believe i started reaching the MBT for cruising. Stepped it back a bit and it appears to run nice with decent EGTs.
Boost curve and idle control completelly redone and it is running beautifully
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more updates,
yet another warm up enrichment and cranking settings uploaded.Good thing this cold weather is giving me a chance to setup all these things! very important. So i now reduced the warm up enrichment quite a bit and cranked up the crank enrichment to see the results. Car still cranks nicely and what do you know, it idles nicely as well!.
boost curve slightly altered and a few changes here and there regarding idling and coolant bins.
question: if i change injectors and simply plot in the correct req_fuel, so as the VE map may need very little changes, would that be the same story for the rest of the settings? cranking, warmup, afterstart...etc?
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They are based on Req_fuel now so they would adjust automatically and only need minnor adjusting
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good news...!
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Hello, I bought a scotty diod (SR806) yesterday and will start to configure my idle now on my ABY engine,
but could you please Post up your screenshots of all the idle control related windows? so i have something to start from..
I use Megatune and 1.1.27beta4
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idle settings are very variable on each car.A starting point and settings have been posted here as well as on the s2forum
http://www.s2forum.com/forum/search.php?searchid=1266308
the only way to tune it is to try lots of different variables and hope for the best.
I have now changed the tables giving one more line on the off boost table, so as to fine tune cruising and economy. I will post results.
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LS2 coil kit now ordered from Efiexpress!
will replace the current coil packs which still tend to give a couple of misfires on the high end revrange even though all changes have been made to accomodate with dwell time.
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idle settings are very variable on each car.A starting point and settings have been posted here as well as on the s2forum
http://www.s2forum.com/forum/search.php?searchid=1266308
the only way to tune it is to try lots of different variables and hope for the best.
The pictures you have posted here and on s2forum dosen't work anymore, "the image has been moved or deleted, photobucket"
I have tuned "idle PID ref table,PWM" so now it works fine, but when the fan starts the idle drops to 500rpm or the engine dies, what do i have to tune to fix that?
I have seen a lot of different values after the P,I,D that i tried but nothing works for me, which values do you have?
P ?
I ?
D ?
integral decrease limit ?
integral increase limit ?
and which number do you have here:
IAC actuator speed/pwm freq ?
.
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there are photos there,not mine that have the PID settings.i use the same settings
Start with those numbers and then play around with those.
Do all changes when you have a warm engine first, have it set, then go for cold starts and idle.
IAC actuator speed and pwm frequency varies as well. Use the ones that are on that thread and play around.
PID control : start with what the numbers are there on the posted settings and do this test: Have A/C on so that the fan works on off and do small accel pedal presses until you see the idle not dropping after a release of the pedal. That way you will see that the PID is working for your car. The starting point is there, you just have to tweak it for your car. Needs lots of trying, fuel and frustration...
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Right, need your help guys.
Connected and started the car today with the following changes:
1) high output ignition coils
2) 7A flywheel
3) larger throttle valve
4) 4bar FPR(instead of 3.8)
5) 630cc injectors instead of 440cc
car fired up, was running unsmothly, until i managed to change the reqfuel from the basic settings. However on each slight throttle depresion the engine was not running properly.
Then after a few tries here and there, the idle went to 1700-1900rpm with the car running rich.
On the log, i noticed that the rpm signal was going off the chart and coming back down, which is why the idle engine was completelly erratic
now, from the start, i had the: trigger error on the vems bottom area.
Things that have been checked are: Hall sender correct, VR sensors correct, i also have the hall inverter on the ECU.
Spark timing was checked and was the same on the megatune and the engine on idle.
i use 1.1.27 v.beta6 and i dont know what is going on at this stage.
the erratic rpm problem started after i tried to disable the ISV valve and timing idle settings so we could try and have stability on timing and play around the VE map a bit. However things became worse and did not change even when i enabled all these settings.
i later noticed that the problem was that the ECU was reading high rpm signal from somewhere. What could be sending this high rpm off the chart signal? i mean it was registering something like 14000rpm or something, momentaraly.
thanks
vasilis
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Cause is 7A flywheel. You need Hall inverter.
Gints
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the ecu is suplied with the hall inverter
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anything else i can do? if the hall inverter is in the ecu and should work is it possible that the problem lies with the vems software needing a reset or something?
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Interesting..
Before reflashing I would check all three reference sensors with scope.
What is high output ign coils?
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problem solved with the help of marc swanson. the 7a flywheel has a very thin pin for thw sensor to pick up,so we had to weld a metallic pon large and yrim ot to spec in order to pick up the signal.
high output coils are the LS2 ignition coils i installed which allow more dwell to be ised to avoid the misfires.
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Hy Vasilis,
i run the LS2 Truckcoils and Siemens Deka 630ccm injectors too.
Idle is very smooth, pulswith is about 1,6 - 1,7ms.
Ign. dwell is set to 3,59 idle < 5,10 ms at WOT
Works fine with 1.1.64, but i need a good timing map for high boost 1,6 - 2.0 bar....
i don't know what the limit is , i heard about 20° at 7000/1,6bar and 18°at 7000/2.0bar...???
Thomas
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Hi,
i replaced the 440 injectors to 630(siemens)
Along with that, i changed the rampup stage from 192 to 280.
now the problem i get after setting up the map is the fact that when the car runs at its warm temp of over 70C, the idle VE bins are ideal and ego correction is not doing anything really. BUT, when the engine gets hotter, to 84C where the fan starts to work, then the VE bins are lean, with the ego correction adding as much as 5-6 levels (from 91 i have to take it to 97 to get 0 ego correction).
That happens in traffic or when the car is on a hot day generally. All the rest of the bins are always correct and ego does not seem to be doing much, the problem seems to be more apparent on idle.
I use the IAC but even when it is turned off, nothing really changes the fact that the engine is leaner.
With Marc's directions i increased the batt calc from 544 to 608 with a small improvement, but it still lean.
can someone tell me what is best to do?
should i use the warm up enrichment scale to increase the fuel?
Should i try and map the car with the rampup of 192 instead of 280?
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AVP: Closely monitor your MAT/IAT and see if it heat soaks. If true, you can solve it with MAT/TPS enrichment table by adding a few % at low TPS/high MAT situations.
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how would i know if it is heatsoaking? its in the same position that it was on the original manifold, and it seems to be responding as it did before(old injectors)
Also i still use 1.1.27, so i dont have that table to use for now.
i would probably need to upgrade to work it out that way.
is there an easy solution for the older firmwares?
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You'll see if it's heat soaking at idle/low speed if it's displaying higher temperatures than while cruising and driving around normally at higher speeds.
The sensor basically shows the temperature of the metal where it's mounted, and not the intake air, which gives a false reading since the air is actually cooler = running lean.
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aaa i see
is it possible to fit a gasket then around that area to correct that as well?
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Hy,
is it important to set an other rampup for the Siemens Dekas ?
I run with the Bosch setup.... :-\
I have an other problem:
in the Range of 6100 the RPM turns from 5900 to 6300 an do some misfire .
In the Logfile it shows like a wave in this RPM range, but i don't know why.....
Only in the range of 6100.....
Thanks Thomas
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hi thomas,
please since this is a different problem than what im experiencing, is it possible to write it in a different thread?
thanks
avp
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Hy, sorry
yes of course...... ;)
Thomas
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noticed that my temp sensor, has a thin gasket fitted so that would make some compromise for heat soak. Original audi has nothing by the way.
so i doubt if this is heat soak.
when driving along a highway, obviously temps fall, so i have something like 73-76C CLT. BUT the normal engine temp is 80-84C. Should i make the VE according to the temps of 80-84? or should i just leave it as it is?
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at least thats the only option on the 1.1.27 version.
hopefully i will be upgrading the firmware in a few months.
any suggestions on which vemstune/firmware to upgrade to?
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Wait and see what the recommended version is when you're ready to upgrade
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i see, anything fancy coming out after 1.1.70 then?
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Who can say ???
But bugs are found and fixed, new things are added, and the best one to use should be evident at the time.
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does that mean that even 'testing' vemstune versions are to be used by users,and not only developers?
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I don't know if I've ever seen anything that even closely resembles a release.
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aaahh i seee.
so even if i do change to what a tuner would suggest, then it is likely that i would change again shortly thereafter..!
noticed firmwares are now up to 1.1.75!
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So they're pushing through with brainstorming on 1.1.7x without releasing 1.1.74
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Among other things there is some re-design on how Alpha-N with MAP compensation works.
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mattias, i am very happy for all the work that is being done, and the new features implemented.I hope a stable release with info regarding the new features is soon released that can be used as safe as 1.1.27 once was(and still is)
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car is now running on the new turbo.
on cold engine it seems that on low revs, from standstill and low TPS i get something like a fuel cut effect, as if not enough enrichment or something is going on. Also sometimes the log registers high rpm signal when this happens and the car just kicks forward violently.
Once i have enrichened the mixture it seems better, but this is something new..
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i have a question,
I use the megalogviewer, to adjust accel enrichments. I notice that when the throttle opens and fuel is added, lamda goes lean first, then to the specified value depending on the bin.However when i take the foot off the pedal, the mixture goes righ before it goes to the fuel cut.
I did some test pressing and releasing the pedal while logging it and it does that all the time.
Also on cold engine the car is actually going very lean i think because of this.
why is it doing that? I have increased all accel enrichments quite a lot but still does it.
is it because the TB opens too fast for any enrichment to be enough?
i have 0.2/0.4/0.7/0.9 ms injec on the 4 bins
1.2sec of time
i had 28multiplication factor
and 3.6 ms for cold added amount.
I use 630cc dekas and from other engines i have seen, they use much less accel enrichments.Only difference i have is a 15% bigger throttle valve. Could that make all this mess?
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You will never get the old acc enrichment strategy to work well under all conditions.
Upgrade to VemsTune supported 1.1.7x+ firmware for a better strategy with a table of % vs rpm in addition to TPS change.
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yes i would need to do that mattias, but for now, i need to have the car in working order before i change!
any solutions to this? How do those accel enrichments sound?
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Do you feel stumpling or hesitation from the engine?
If not then your fine, hunting for a steady lambda while accelerating the throttle isn´t needed.
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i did on cold engine, quite a lot.
do you think taking the cold accel values higher would cure things?
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yes
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ok, i have increased all accel enrichments as well as cold values.I will give it a go the next days...
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it seems that accel enrichments are better now.
do you know if 1.1.27 versions have some kind of internal module that says when the engine is warm, or air temperature is warmer, the boost levels wont reach their highest value, whereas when the engine is colder + colder enviroment, it reaches them without any change on the settings?
i get that on a regular basis now. When i took the car for mapping, on cold ealry morning, the car was reaching and spiking sometimes above 300kpa, then once i made the adjustments for the spikes, and after lots of runs(although iat was still within the 13-23C) the car wouldnt reach more than 295kpa
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You need to adjust the PID settings and the limit so that the boost control is able to control that range.
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my pid settings are 240/5/58.
usuallly when i increace the D thats when i get more boost to hold on, but it may also increase too much the boost on the higher gears, which i want to avoid
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Then you obviously need more tuning of the pid settings or raising of the refDC.
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i use rpm vs map, not DC
refDC is 4/5
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Send me your msq and I´ll have a look
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sure i will email you!
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does changing to 1.1.70 from 1.1.27 version and from nissan trigger to audi trigger v3 change the timing on the engine? i have a bit of trouble getting hold of a strobe light to recheck the timing and im wondering if it is safe to do it without the use of it.
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i have another query...
when i look at the MAT/TPS tables on the base maps (eg. 1.1.70) the idea is that the hotter the air, the leaner the mixture.
Why is it that on my car on 1.1.27 still, when the MAT is getting warmer, it seems that the EGO correction is going to the + areas, although i have build the VE tables in a way that is mostly 0 to (-),(rich side in other words). I would expect that then the MAT is getting higher(hotter) it should get richer and therefore substract more fuel as the EGO correction works.
Why is it doing the opposite in my car?
Could this be an indication of a malfunctioning water temp or IAT temp sensor? How can i be sure when im using VEMS about malfunctioning sensors?
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Mentioned map includes universal gas law. It is not hardcoded in firmware. Hotter air - less O2 molecules - less fuel.
In 1.1.27 it was hardcoded. Only way to change something was fake air density value.
Gints
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I see,
thanks for that,
does that mean that at least with the 1.1.70 version that has the mat/tps table this can be somewhat compensated for?
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Sorry, what you mean?
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i mean that since 1.1.27 has to have things as you say fake air density value(by the way how do i change that?), if i upgrade to 1.1.70 version, would i be able by using the MAT/TPS table to fix this problem?
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well,
i managed to get hold of a digital strobe light so im hoping at least this weekend to do the upgrade to 1.1.70 version
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no go for the upgrade, as i realise that the newer versions lack a few features which im told that will appear in the future vemstune versions. I managed to verify my timing at least with the strobe light and now the car works nicely with the 1.1.27 version at least.
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Upgrade to 1.1.74 instead. 1.1.70 has a coil dwell bug that sometimes causes problems while cranking.
What exactly are you missing? 1.1.7x is much better overall, it's just better to use it rather than 1.1.27.
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as i have stated in a different thread, im missing the boost offset feature and i dont want to have to make a whole DC table to have the boost i want. Boost offset works very good on megatune and as you said, if it is something you guys are already looking into, its best to wait.
also it is frustrating that all idle settings are completelly different now and i have to start from scratch to make them work again. It took me a good 2 months and many hours of testing before i got perfect idle on 1.1.27. Since vemstune is using different features and options, i have to do them all over again, as there are no specific fields to put the same numbers in, and even if that is there for some, from others that have upgraded, they are wrong numbers anyway, if you just transfer from 27 to 74.
anyway, i know that the 1.1.7x versions are much better, and have many new features, but once the boost offset is there, i may give it a go.
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Hi, sorry to hijack the thread but i have a question: If the hall signal from the camshaft pulley doesn't allign with the flywheel pin then would i have misfire or no spark at all.
Megatune doesnt see any RPM also.
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well after a long time the car is now working semi-properly still on 1.1.27 firmware, but at least idle under control, warm up enrichments modified to cover for heatsoak, and still on PTC IAT sensor. I readjusted a bit the timing on cruise to get more fuel economy and it transformed the car to more torquier on the low revs. Quite nice and no knock(important). From previous setups the hp output i got from street runs and perfomance boc data comes out to : 4th gear on late pedal press, as boost comes faster than 4100 in practice. Boost levels were somewhat 2.05overboost and 1.95 till redline. Nice fat torque curve.
http://s117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/vasp3690/?action=view¤t=GT3076R1551.jpg
Next things planned already are:
October: fitment of phenolic spacer to inlet to reduce heatsoak. Also fitment of secondary IAT (NTC) on the inlet
November: Upgrade to 1.1.81 firmware with NTC connector, and hopefully quick change from one firmware to another to have a working car!!
With the new features i hope to have better response from the MAT/IAT table, and get the IAT/retard table nicely setup. There is a thought of changing to smaller EV14 injectors from the dekas, but no $$$ for that atm.
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I didn't had time yet to send you my config. Havent looked at the car (and vems) the last month :(
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not to worry, take your time, as im still on 1.1.27!
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what is the lowest lamda values you have been using on Audi I5 engines?
although i have read in numerous books that the leanest possible usually can be up to 1.16lamda, i have managed to take it to 1.13-1.11 without any problems on driving and to tell you the truth within city driving im not convinced it has made a difference in consumption. Im amazed to say that when motronic uses narrow band and only goes up to 1.02 lamda, i cannot really understand how it can have better fuel economy than vems. Im pretty sure that i use the same timing as motronic, and recently giving it some more advance, the car feels much more lively on off to light boost areas (up to 140-150kpa) but still the consumption fails to improve(at least on initial impressions)
can it be that now that the timing is higher, there may be minor knock(which i cannot hear at all by the way, neither with earphones), that requires for the lamda to go back to richer values than 1.11? such as 1.05 or something?
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you can´t lean out forever without a engine that can benefit from it(lean burn direct injection , multiple injection direct injection)
check your pw before and now, I´m sure your running higher kpa and lower VE values but about the same final PW.
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but on 1.1.27 you only have accel enrichment, VE, and lamda that is controlling the PW. SO i havent changed the accel enrichment, lamda is there to keep everything in place BUT my VE table on those areas are on the rich side for this reason: Due to heatsoak, when the IAT becomes higher than 28, the mixtures start to lean out. So the lamda wants to add more fuel.
eg. when it is cold outside, and the IATs are between 4-18C i can make the VE table to be specifically right for those temperatures,and then the EGO correction is practically not required, because everything works fine. However, if the IATs go above 25-28C then the EGO is always adding fuel and the car feels stiff and restrictive, because i believe it is seeing a lot of lean spots, as the EGO is not fast enough to compensate.
SO to avoid that, i made the VE table richer a bit so that it can compensate for this, as well as used the warm up enrichment curve to add more fuel when the CLT is high( as most of the times it follows the high IATs). This cured the problem BUT it also means that on the colder days, the EGO is always retracting fuel to keep the requested lamda. Can this be the reason for the high consumption alone?
i must say, i may have been a bit overreacting with the lamda, indeed before i fixed my timing table, by leaning out, i was getting better economy, but only up to a point. Then i expected to get even better when the timing was upgraded which didnt happen.
Im hoping that once i upgrade to 1.1.81, i can use the mat vs tps table to eliminate this need to keep the VE table rich on those areas.I will be also installing a phenolic spacer on the inlet manifold to reduce heat soak.
Gunnar, many thanks for the responces. As i said before, once im finalised with the ECU and equipment i must arranget to get on the dyno with you and build the timing table to perfection...
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after a motorway trip,i noticed that beng too lean didnt really help when timong is high.so in turn, i made the lamda slightly richer again and noticed that it had a positive effect.So now im somewhere in between in mixtures around 1.06 to 1.09.Car runs fine,but hopefully in the next couple of weeks when i get the new ecu,consuption should improve along with perfomamce
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1.1.81 from today
first impressions: good
map although i use the same lamda, and injectors seems to be leaner than what megatune was using, and that i cannot understand.
im in the process of fixing this by retuning the VE tables
idle: still some work to do on this one as there are multiple alternatives. Trial and error
Speed sensor: anyone know how to find the hz value at 100km? where do i look?
Gear depended boost: probably due to a wrong speed sensor value, it does not keep the boost and it rather causes a wide oscillation. I am going to try without it, but if anyone has an idea of how to manipulate the speed sensor, please let me know!
acceleration enrichments: although i used the identical to magatune, it seems from the logs to over enrich things so i am gradually reducing them.
so far soo good...
LCD display: any way to make it go faster as well as other screen than 0 or 4 that presents things nicer?
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well after a long time i can say im happy with the 1.1.81 firmware.
car is now idling fine, accel enrichments are fine, cold starts as well.
Boost control is very good and switchable configs work nicely as well.
things i still would like fixed are the speed sensor which is jumping around and without it i cannot have the gear depended boost control...
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Update:
trigger errors are now eliminated and cold start is slightly better for the 630cc siemens deka injectors.
I am getting better fuel economy on 1.06-1.09 lamda so i am leaving it as it is for now.
Boost control is very good and what would be nice is some kind of safety mechanism to allow VEMS to understand when there is a boost leak( ie an rpm threshold where boost should come in in revs or kpa or both, which when not reached an error might appear)
After recent problems with idle again following a wash!! of the car, i took apart the idle valve and TB assembly, cleaned all surfaces and reconnected everything up. This allowed for the use of 34% DC on the idle speed IAC in order to have the 950rpm idle that i like. Idle is not as good as it can be and im happy with it.
I will be changing some stuff on the makeshift heat shield i have for the air filter and adding on the lava mat which will give it a better look.
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a bit of bling?
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/vasp3690/IMAG0148.jpg)
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Great project! I have a 91 200 20v running VEMS and a GT30r myself. I've got a few quick questions:
1: How did you get the speed sensor wired in? Or was this a plug and play from EFI Express?
2: How did you resolve your trigger errors? I am currently getting them usually in 2nd gear, WOT at around 6500rpms and the car seems to misfire right at the point of the TR E.
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Hi
if your car misfires, then the trigger error may be correct(true). I didnt have any misfires, and i was getting trigger errors. But then i used for min/max window the numbers 1-359 and that cured it.
as you see i use LS2 ignition modules, and those have solved all misfires.
The speed sensor is not supplied. Its the one on the car already. VEMS still has trouble getting a stable signal from it, and therefore i do not use it at the moment. However i would like to see if future firmwares improve things.
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Hi
if your car misfires, then the trigger error may be correct(true). I didnt have any misfires, and i was getting trigger errors. But then i used for min/max window the numbers 1-359 and that cured it.
as you see i use LS2 ignition modules, and those have solved all misfires.
The speed sensor is not supplied. Its the one on the car already. VEMS still has trouble getting a stable signal from it, and therefore i do not use it at the moment. However i would like to see if future firmwares improve things.
How does having a trigger error negatively affect things if there is no misfire? I'll have to try putting those numbers in and see if that helps a bit. How did you come up with them? I am also using the LS2 coils in my setup, might just need a bit more dwell..?
I figured it would use the factory speed sensor but I was curious if the signal was already supplied to the ECU through the factory harness and/or if you had to do any internal modifications to the VEMS ECU to use the speed input. If it's still unstable then I am not too concerned with getting it up and working yet but I'd love to at some point.
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wheel speed is VERY unstable and untunable at the moment, which is why i dropped it. i use 1.1.81 firmware and i dont know how the 1.1.88 reacts to it, as there are some different features there. Speed reading jumps around everytime you accelerate. There is no linearity to it and sometimes it doesnt even reach the maximum speed you are at.
The trigger errors, sometimes happen without misfire when you have a problem with the crank sensor having too much noise. They may turn up on vemstune, but you are not feeling the car jerking or having any problems on the run.
That is what i was getting. So as soon as i fixed the window min/max, then i didnt get any trigger error signals again.
I assume that if i was having misfires, i would be still be getting errors of some sort.
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1.1.88 firmware is on and working.
i havent managed to try the new settings yet, but it seems stable enough.
I wanted to point out, that as far as the idle is concerned, it is near to impossible to tune the idle without the use of the ignition timing holding things closer and tighter and the reason is that if ignition timing is turned off, then the only things that interfere with idle are: VE,lamda, MAT and IAC through its PID.
So if i try to tune the PID without the ignition timing is ON, at idle speed even with the VE nicely tuned and stable, lamda will not be 100% stable enough to have an accurate PID testing and tuning. So when i tried this, any PID settings would not work 100%. When i turned the ignition timing on, then idle was much more stable, even with very slight timing fluctuations, but this gave me the opportunity to get the PID setup as much as i could when electrical load was high, which is the most important bit to tune with PID i believe.
anyway, with the new firmware, on high electrical load, i still get the idle dipping when returning to the idle speed area, but it doesnt stall. This was done with a stationary car and accelerator pedal getting pressed lightly to while changing PID numbers.
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I have been having some issues with my crankcase ventilation system. Apparently my drain to sump was unsuccesfull in means of my sump getting some pressure during boost, thus likely pushing oil towards the tank,and as the tank's outlet was returning to the turbo/airfilter as OEM configuration made the turbo and inlet lines oily.
Im not sure how much oil has been brought up this way, but after a few runs which i realised what was going on, i disengaged the oil drain to sump and used an open to atmoshpere filter as a temporary solution.
The result is that its a bit better now. BUT here is my problem:
When i originaly had put the GT30R in, i was able to hold 2+bar overboost and keep it close to 1.95-2bar to the redline.
Now, my boost holds till 5000-5500rpm to 2.1bar then drops rapidly to 1.7 on the redline.
I can see from the logs that the N75valve tries to keep the boost high by increasing the DC, but there is no way.
Im wondering if this is down to increased backpressure of some sort. What kind of damage could the crankcase system have caused to the engine to not allow it to sustain this high boost anymore?
There is no turbo play(as in, normal for the BB turbos), and other than the fact that the N75 valve and lines were oily, but cleaned, i cannot see any other apparent issue with the turbo itself. Obviously i havent taken it off.
There is no white smoke coming off the turbo itself either.
Could this be down to damaged piston rings, causing excessive sump pressurization and loss of boost on higher revs? If that, shouldnt i be seeing higher oil consumption(which i dont).?
Ill try and see if i can run a compression test after easter as well.
any ideas?
thanks
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1.1.88 firmware is on and working.
i havent managed to try the new settings yet, but it seems stable enough.
I wanted to point out, that as far as the idle is concerned, it is near to impossible to tune the idle without the use of the ignition timing holding things closer and tighter and the reason is that if ignition timing is turned off, then the only things that interfere with idle are: VE,lamda, MAT and IAC through its PID.
So if i try to tune the PID without the ignition timing is ON, at idle speed even with the VE nicely tuned and stable, lamda will not be 100% stable enough to have an accurate PID testing and tuning. So when i tried this, any PID settings would not work 100%. When i turned the ignition timing on, then idle was much more stable, even with very slight timing fluctuations, but this gave me the opportunity to get the PID setup as much as i could when electrical load was high, which is the most important bit to tune with PID i believe.
anyway, with the new firmware, on high electrical load, i still get the idle dipping when returning to the idle speed area, but it doesnt stall. This was done with a stationary car and accelerator pedal getting pressed lightly to while changing PID numbers.
This is interesting what are you using for idle timing? I have the reverse on my car I have to turn it off as it cause terrible fluttering and vibrations if I turn on idle ignition control so I a purely PID based
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I have 12deg on idle area. No problems with fluttering, but idle could be better with wc14 objectors I guess. However, still better than motronic
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i have been looking for a coupe for years in the states... i finally found one that is rusted or beat to hell.
very nice car ;D
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recently on a trip i was having idle issues again as it was dropping due to the use of headlights, wipers, heater at the same time. So i followed mattias advice and recalculated the DC to even higher spec to keep the idle from dropping off when putting it into neutral and now its even better! Thanks Mattias!
The car will be having an engine/head rebuilt in the following months as it seems to be down on power and the PCV system which wasnt sorted may have caused a few things to go wrong. I know however the turbo is ok and checked, i now have a dual catch tank setup, so thats ok as well, and also i am retrofitting a vaccum brake servo and getting rid of the hydraulic one, which has caused me a heavy load of money and no success in making it work properly. So in turn, im going back to the trusted vaccum servo which although S2/RS2 cars are not built with it, it appears that it is shown in the ETKA files!
anyway, vemswise, i am at 1.1.88.
Can someone verify if the speed sensor is working better on 1.1.88 and what values are needed on the dividers in order to get an accurate reading? I am keen on using gear depended boost control but if the speed sensor is not working properly, then its a no go...
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Update:
a lot of things have been done.
Engine was stripped to investigate the loss of compression and indeed, all cylinders were worn and pressure was lost that way. So another block was sourced in order to keep the pistons,but that wasnt possible. Eventually i bought 2nd step oversize pistons 81.50 and got everything together again.
A modified 7A cyl.head is now on, with larger valves, OEM springs, all checked for their spring rates, some porting has also been done, and compression ratio somewhere around stock (9-9.3:1) by head skimming. Cams are still ADU and the engine has been run in nicely. The turbo is still a 3076R, now with 0.63AR instead of the 0.82 and it also has a similar size billet wheel.
I have managed to get it to 1.4bar on a safe tune, still fiddling around with settings, but its likely i may be heading on a dyno for some more elaborate tuning. Not sure yet due to hectic work timetable...
car runs nice by the way!
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after a tuning session that i had on a dyno to check my timing and knock(all was ok) i couldnt get the boost to not oscilate on spool on the runs. After not wanting to spend too much time on the dyno, i decided to fix it on the road. However i was unsuccesful, until i realised that my newly rebuilt wastegate was sticking open as the valve was scoring on the guide!
A secondhand wastegate later, and i was back in business.
On the dyno with the oscillations and 1.68bar on the redline it made 368.7whp (dyno dynamics)
on my virtual dyno excel sheet i managed about 374whp on 1.87overboost and 1.68 at the redline.
here is a dyno chart (comparison) vs an RS2 with K27/26 tuned to 2.2bar overboost and gradual reduction on a newly rebuilt engine and ported head.
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/vasp3690/187to168barbillet.jpg)
I must say i am not impressed with the way vems logs the rpm. On 2 out of 3 runs during the mid range 4800-5300rpm the rpms almost flattened out, when the boost was 300kpa! I am not sure if that was happening because the VE table had 300kpa as the top bin, and for some reason there was a problem of the log.
Then on the final run, which was a slight downhill, the rpm log was ok, and virtual dyno measured 429whp, which i cannot take as true!
for anyone wanting to see a log with the flatspot on the revrange i can email the log if you give me the email address.(uploading the log on a server is much to time consuming).
I have now dealt with the PID settings on the boost and left it to 1.9bar overboost and 1.8 till 6000rpm and 1.7bar at 6500 tailing off at 7300.
Car has a beautifull midrange and it gives almost around 470-480hp crank which is brilliant!
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for anyone wanting to see a log with the flatspot on the revrange i can email the log if you give me the email address.(uploading the log on a server is much to time consuming).
The built-in report tool in VemsTune takes no time at all, just give us a link to the report when you're done.
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hmm
havent done a report.
i will now and post a link
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here is the link
http://vems.hu/vemstune/bugreports/reports.php?cmd=view&key=IKGZiC
2 logs.
on the first you can see the flat spot between 5200-5500rpm
on the second log, where the run is at the very beggining,there is no flat spot and rpm vs time is linear
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I do not see where is disturbance in second log, but first one looks really weird. Especially if it comes not from rolling road test.
Similar shape seen when clutch starts to slip. But it is usually just once disturbance per WOT pull where torque reach maximum.
May be it comes from non-even logging frequency. If we look to SecL or Time line - it also looks not straight...
Gints
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yes,that is what i said,
the second log looks much more normal than the first.
and i have 3 logs in total, 2 of them look like the first one.
i do not have any slip on the clutch either.
i do get a trigger error at the end of the rev range if you look as well on the logs, and once the trigger error comes in, i can see the rpm needle in my dash jumping around a bit.
im wondering if that has anything to do with it...
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So logs come from real road or dyno?
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sorry,
real road.
first was slightly uphill and second was downhill on the opposite side of the road. but the amount of incline was minimal
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i have had no responses from the report yet.
i plan to check the sensor and get a second one to test as well.
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May be it is because of disturbed time scale?
X-axis of log is samples, not time IMHO.
Very interesting!
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admins say that there is no problem in the datalogging!!!
can this be wheel spin then?
as those areas of the graph are within the highest torque production (roughly) anyway, and put that with a slight uphill....? i dont know!
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here is the run as i calculated the power with virtual dyno.
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/vasp3690/jaggedrun3dgear.jpg)
also here is the run on the second log where the time vs rpm is more linear, and it is a bit downhill
(disregard the red/blue lines, they are from another car)
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/vasp3690/2barto168billet.jpg)
So i cannot see how i can gain almost 50whp just by going from 1.87bar to 2bar overboost and holding the same boost at the redline.
Yes, its downhill and that will make a difference, but the issue is that on this run where the rpm vs time was nice, there are no ups and downs on the run!
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I think they are right. Simply VEMS can't send some part of sample with delay or with wrong rpms. As I wrote - very similar shape when clutch start to slip a little. I had such graphs more than once. But as a rule with one disturbance - at max torque. But yours seems more complex....
Of course dyno measurement will be off in case of wheel spin or clutch slip!
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Sure. These are street measurements though, not dyno.
If we had knock control on vems I could say this is something to do with that.
I will check the sensor and make sure its ok, cause it is known that vems with some Audi flywheels seems to have trouble reading.
I still cannot believe that I can have as much as 500rpm off between my dash rpm and vems log. Something is definitely wrong.
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I checked the sensor today, didn't seem to have any problems visually. I cleaned it and placed it back to its position
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did some more logs today and new vemstune
seemed to log the rpm signal ok, so here is a result from my virtual dyno on a 4th gear pull, slight uphill
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/vasp3690/4thgearpulluphill.jpg)
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did a final change on the wastegate as the one that was on was only a loan. Car is behaving nicely.
Also changed the ECU for the water injection and everything is working properly again!
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Update.
after a few runs yesterday on the setting of the WI that i have with the snow perfomance controller, i saw that mixture was getting closer to 0.79 and 0.78 ever so slightly.
IATs and EGTs where also slightly lower.
SO after i fit the safe injection controller and wire that to the config switch so that it switches configs as safety in case of low flow, i will adjust the fuelling a bit and give some more timing (little by little) to see if i get any gains.
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What is this virtual dyno software you are using? maybe I didn't look back in your thread far enough.
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its a little excel that when you input time vs rpm on 3d or 4th gear and also input the gear ratio/weight/frontal area of car/tyres it can generate a power/torque figure for each run you do, so long as you do a proper full throttle 3d or 4th gear pull on a level plain road.