VEMS Community Forum
Members => Projects & Installs => Topic started by: Marty on June 06, 2012, 02:26:56 am
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Howdy folks,
I'm Marty; currently installing a VEMS in my B3 Audi 90. A few specs to start:
- AAN motor, Garrett GTX3071 turbo with Siemens Deka 550 cc injectors and 5x LS2 ignition coils.
I believe I've got most of the preliminary items installed and configured but I'm not having any luck firing it up.
I have not yet put a timing light on, and I know that'll be the first recommendation. I should get around to that in the next day or 2.
I was hoping someone could take a look at my config file and let me know if they spot any obvious glaring issues. I'm not extremely clear on some of the help info so I've left a lot of items default.
Here is a link to my Wiki where I have a few shots and a link to my current config file.
http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=MembersPage%2FMarty (http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=MembersPage%2FMarty)
Any help is appreciated!
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I did my timing check, and everything looks good. I'm triggering about 2 or 3 degrees BTDC.
There are several unusual things: Whenever I crank, I get a few seconds and then the laptop->ECU connection is dropped. I'm not sure if this is expected but this seems to make it difficult to get a vemslog with much detail (or so it seems?).
I am also seeing 0 RPMs on most of my attempts. Not sure why that is, since my triggers seem to be appearing correctly?
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Direct Link to my config file:
http://www.vems.hu/files/Marty/v3.3_u004574-A-2012.05.24-12.58.57.vemscfg
Direct Link to my log file:
http://www.vems.hu/files/Marty/v3.3_u004574-2012.05.21-23.03.03.vemslog
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May help to throw a charger on your battery? I was getting random disconnects while cranking when I was trying to get up and running...voltage drop while cranking was my issue as the battery was quite low from a number of unsuccessful starts.
I don't know how the firing order is on that car but I would expect (if you have a nice clean triggerlog and are confident in your wiring) that it is something with firing order/trigger settings. Set the cranking ignition advance to zero and crank the car with the timing light on it...if it's not strobing at tdc then you need to adjust your trigger teeth settings. This should be the first place you start.
Good luck!
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That was a good tip prior to last night actually. A close observation of my trigger log may have shown that it was barely cranking at the time; however yesterday I traded my crapped out battery in on warranty and put the new one in. Cranking was significantly improved, but lo and behold: the disconnect continued to happen.
- I'm presuming from your reply that this is not expected behavior.
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Nope, sounds like noise in that case, do you have a shield in your dsub connector?
I'm not near vemstune so I have yet to look at your log, but regards to starting- are you confident of the firing order in your config? I assume you've checked that you have fuel pressure/fuel at the rail? (I.e. the pump is kicking on?)
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I ordered the prefabbed harness, so I'm not likely to suspect a shielding issue. Perhaps it's a crappy mini-PCMCIA serial adaptor. I may have an alternative adapter cable around. I'll take a look.
Firing order is 1-2-4-5-3
Fuel Pump is priming
I just tried to understand the ignition Outputs Visual page again and I've made some adjustments.
When my Cylinder 1 is at TDC, my 60-2 wheel is on the ~17th tooth past the missing tooth.
I've changed around the settings now hoping I understand correctly. On the Angle slider, I have pulled the 3 degrees of timing to get it to zero (with timing light). I have yet to verify after this change that I'm triggering at TDC.
I believe I misunderstood these values before, but my wiki link has an attached image of the previous setting.
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii11/minipitt1/IGNvisual.png)
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TDC after trigger of 3 degrees is likely too small to charge the coils.
Reduce your FTT to get that "TDC after trigger" over into the green (to the right)
I would send you mine, for reference but again i'm not near vemstune/computer
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1719609 (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1719609)
Here's something that may help explain that a bit better...
Know of anyone running vems on similar engine? Maybe you could find a config and copy their trigger settings over and then confirm with a light.
Were you running 0 degrees crank advance under starting/idle>cranking>ignition advance when you had the light?
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OK, Thank you very much for that link. Helped greatly
Here is my new setting:
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii11/minipitt1/IGNvisual-1.png)
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Cool.
Now set your cranking advance to zero degrees and verify that the timing light strobes at tdc mark.
(May want to disable the fuel pump relay first)
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Looks like I'm getting injector pulses if I'm reading my log correctly and I have a light on my #1 plug so I can see it firing. I haven't re-verified trigger at TDC because I need a second set of hands. Seems to me it should be right on if I thought it out correctly, but I'll handle that as soon as I can
Here's a log file image
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii11/minipitt1/Logfile6-8.png)
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A few shots
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii11/minipitt1/435e1e84.jpg)
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii11/minipitt1/6d3c6788.jpg)
No decent shots of the turbo, but here I was ading an oil pressure test rig
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii11/minipitt1/f24674a1.jpg)
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii11/minipitt1/1779d19b.jpg)
Fear not, I have some acrylic tornado red just waiting for the day...
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii11/minipitt1/DSC02414.jpg)
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Tearing my hair out here, and I'm all outta hair!
I'm hoping someone can take a look at things here and help me diagnose. I have been in my garage every single day for some time now trying to diagnose this most rudimentary of #%&^*$ problems :(
Here are my symptoms and points of interest:
- I have verified my Spark, and spark timing with a strobe
- I've tried 0, 8, 10, and 12 degrees of cranking advance
- I can smell fuel, at times I've cranked enough that the air is dense with it and my eyes are watering
- I've adjusted based on theory that it's too rich, and I've adjusted based on theory that it's too lean
- I have tweaked my fueling PW based on my own theories, and when that failed I have tried every single value I could find in any vemscfg for any similar cars available on the internet...
- Also tweaked my fueling PW based on every single value I could find in ANY vemscfg for any Other cars available on the internet...
- I am using a harness built by VEMS, including the ECU and the Relay/Fuse Harness so wiring is not (immediately) suspect, However:
- As far as Harness Terminations go (injector and sensor plugs), I have verified every single one of these more times than I can count, using visual, multimeter, test lights, noid light, spark indicator, tug and pull, VEMS Test modes...
Never ONCE in my entire experience (1000 start attempts?) has fuel ignited at the expected time in any cylinder... Not once!!
-Occasionally, I get a very brief (audible) burst of pressure. Last night I noticed that my boost gauge is jumping to 10psi when this happens. I also smelled combustion when this happened yesterday. I should note that this engine was running fine prior to changing the ECU (if that removes any suspicions about broken internals). I do not know what this would be a symptom of, but it is quite occasional in relation to my number of attempts to start.
Now since I have a properly timed spark, and I can smell the fuel, the only remaining possible fail modes I can think of are:
Fuel quantity
Fuel Timing
my cylinder firing order
1-2-4-5-3
my corresponding injector order
4-5-3-1-2
Could anyone take a look at my log? I've linked it as an .xls. hopefully someone can find meaning in this and help me.
I'm starting to think if I poured a can of gas on this car and threw a match I couldn't get it lit........ >:(
http://www.vems.hu/files/Marty/VEMS%20log.xls
and a link to my current config
http://www.vems.hu/files/Marty/v3.3_u004574-A-2012.07.11-20.24.12.vemscfg
-Also, is there a legend I can use to identify what the column headers in the (csv version) vemslog mean? -For example there is a column called "Engine", and I don't know what it is
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Quite often in such cases reason is unpowered system components (coils, pump, injectors) during cranking. Haven't you?
Next reason is no compression. Cam timing way off, valves never closes etc...
Triggerlog file with just 1st plug screwed in would be helpful also.
Do you use Hall sensors? For VR trigger edge must be rising.
Gints
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I do still have a strange case where my VEMS says "Disconnected" during cranking, but I can not determine why.
- My voltage drops to ~10.2V perhaps this is the reason. Is there a minimum voltage threshold?
Or it is expected behavior that when generating logs, the UI communication is disconnected to save bandwidth for logging?
Since I'm using the VEMS fuse/relay harness, it seems the power and ground connections would be difficult to confuse. My plugs are sparking, and my injectors test out ok. My trigger log shows what I *believe is correct.
I'm using a 60-2 VR sensor on the crank, and a Hall sensor on the cam.
Perhaps I need to evaluate my alternator wiring.
I will retest my compression, but I have done this since the last time the engine started successfully, and the values were ok.
I'll get a 1 plug vemslog this evening
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Here is a 1 plug log
http://www.vems.hu/files/Marty/1plug%20VEMS%20log.xls
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Not the right log. I meant .triggerlog file.
Tools->Record triggerlog. For some reason PC connection stays stable for this test.
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Well it turns out your suggestion to check compression was a good one for now. Found zero compression in cylinder 2. I pulled the head yesterday and investigated today. Both intake valves on that cylinder seem to be stuck slightly open. Odd since I had a machine shop spec it and replace guides and seals not too long ago. I'll bring it back on Monday to see if they can determine what happened.
- regarding the stable vemslog, that's likely to the reduced load on the starter from having only 1 plug in. I'm looking into possible causes for an excessive voltage drop when cranking.
I'll have to get back in a few days when I have my head back and installed.
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Ever get it sorted?
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Nothing yet. I've done tons more investigation and have figured out a few things:
- my freshly spec'd head has a a set of stuck intake valves, so it's in the shop right now.
- I'm suspicious of my fuel, since the car ha been in the garage for almost a year now
(perhaps the cause of the valve problem)
- I think my alternator supply wire may not have been connected, and may be whats causing the ecu to reset while cranking. this is likely the real problem.
I'm out of town at the moment, but my plan is to reinstall the head when I get home, drain the tank and add fresh fuel, then fix (or continue to diagnose) the power supply issues
Should have more results in a week I'd say.
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We had similar problem with few rebuilt VAG heads. Reason was really bad quality valve guides. And it was pain to find quality ones.
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Nothing yet. I've done tons more investigation and have figured out a few things:
- my freshly spec'd head has a a set of stuck intake valves, so it's in the shop right now.
- I'm suspicious of my fuel, since the car ha been in the garage for almost a year now
(perhaps the cause of the valve problem)
- I think my alternator supply wire may not have been connected, and may be whats causing the ecu to reset while cranking. this is likely the real problem.
I'm out of town at the moment, but my plan is to reinstall the head when I get home, drain the tank and add fresh fuel, then fix (or continue to diagnose) the power supply issues
Should have more results in a week I'd say.
Hoping for the best man, seems like your config issues are sorted...and the guides definitely make sense!
Good luck!
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Ok, so tons of progress over the last few weeks getting the engine bay cleaned up, reinstalling everything and bundling wires etc., not to mention putting my interior/dash back in.
I've been trying to start it again for a few days now, and I've discovered that the (secondary)cam trigger is out of phase.
For the sake of discussion, lets say my firing order is 1,2,3,4,5;
According to all of the documentation, I should set my "Ignition settings Visual" to:
1,5,4,3,2 (and the same with Injectors). I'm wondering if this is why my cam is out of phase with the software triggering.
- Would the logical solution be to set my Ignition and injectors to 1,2,3,4,5 instead?
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how far off is the ignition from where it should be, an exact 360° ?
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it 'appears' to be an exact 360. I judged by flashing a timing light at the bottom of the cam sprocket (Cam TDC marker is at the top). It appears to be exactly opposite the TDC marker.
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It's been a while since I've been in my garage trying to figure this out, but I'm still not coming up with anything. I've had a few discussions and so on, but no one's offered a definitive reply.
- I'm wondering what I would configure differently if my cam trigger is occurring out of phase. -I can not (even remotely easily) move the sensor, so I would like to do it with the software.
I'm not sure exactly where to put such a change in though.. Trigger table?, Ignition firing order? etc.
Can anyone help? I verified the Cam is out of phase using a timing light on the cam sprocket.
-I've been told that there is no way to correct this in the software but I can't see how that would be true(!?)
Again it's a 5 cylinder, running a 60-2 tooth/VR sensor on the crank. It has a 1 window Hall sender on the cam
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Try to publish .triggerlog with only plug #1 instaled. Preferable two: one with camsync "falling" another - "rising"
And also your .vemsconfig
Otherwise it's just speculations.
Gints
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Ahh yes, I've forgotten to do this. I will this evening
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Here's a link to the trigger log
www.vems.hu/files/Marty/v3.3_u004574-2012-11-13-18.42.47.triggerlog
And a link to the config file
http://www.vems.hu/files/Marty/v3.3_u004574-A-2012.10.02-20.24.45.vemscfg
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Yes firing point was off.
Here is config for you to try. Because of camsync in "wrong" revolution firing order now starts from 5th cylinder: 5 3 1 2 4
http://www.vems.hu/files/Marty/v3.3_u004574-A-2012.10.02-20.24.45aaa.vemscfg
Config contains many small changes with successful start as target.
Anyway - there is one thing what confuses me: your triggerlog contains just one spark event instead of five per cycle. Try to upload my config and start with triggerlog again. If you still see just one spark event for first try 1.1.95 or 1.2.0
Injector outputs later should be changed to match ignition table. But it has not big influence on startup.
Gints
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hehe, I'm sorry I misinterpreted again. I thought you wanted see only the 1 ignition event so I changed the setting to only use "00". This would not be reflected in the config file though.
-Aside from cranking speed, I assumed the plot would be the same.
I did take one with all 5 just prior to the single Ign, here is a link.
www.vems.hu/files/Marty/Triggerlog%205%20Ign.triggerlog
-I'll try ,your config file this evening (unless this triggerlog makes a difference?).
Thank you!
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Then OK. You can try to start the engine with my corrected config.
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Beautiful!!
fired right up, and idles at ~1600 rpm.
I didn't capture any logs yet because I still need to wire in injector resistors, and a fuse/diode to my ISV.
More to come!
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whats your key on wire going to. put a scope or meter on the key on wire and make sure it has power not only with key on but in the cranking posisition as well.
i had someone wire the key on to the radio and the ecu would loose power while cranking..
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Thanks! /\ /\ -Got that part sorted out.
Here is a link to the current log file. Runs pretty steady but I have a few things to handle still. Seems my EGT thermocouple is either wired backward, or something else is wrong, also need to reassign my injectors. Then on to some basic tuning!
-Winter is here though, so this'll be hibernating soon, for most of the next 4 months.
http://www.vems.hu/filethingie.php?subdir=Marty
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Well, all of my installation issues are now resolved, and I'm am getting my base fuel maps tuned in and tweaking values here and there. I'm running into a situation and I don't know where to look first for troubleshooting. I can accelerate well up until about 3000 RPM and 100 KPA, but then I feel the engine rapidly pulsing and rpms, MAP etc bouncing up and down. It's a slight bounce, but it's very regular (about 10 hz maybe). This seems to be severely limiting my power output as well ???
I suspect it's something like my boost controller, IAC or something else but I was wondering if anything stands out in this image, and what settings I should look at(?).
Here's a shot of my log
(http://www.vems.hu/files/Marty/bouncy%20logfile.png)
Any thoughts?
Thank you!
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Upload the .vemslog of the problem instead of the screenshot.
I had this similar (yet unsolved) problem at about 3300 rpm on an Audi S2 and never got it fixed. No trigger errors or anything, just a slight misfire at a certain rpm. Car worked like a charm on every other rpm, passed emissions tests and everything. It was at a very specific rpm too.
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Logfile
http://www.vems.hu/files/Marty/v3.3_u004574-2013.06.03-09.45.53.vemslog (http://www.vems.hu/files/Marty/v3.3_u004574-2013.06.03-09.45.53.vemslog)
Config file (Don't mind the file name)
http://www.vems.hu/files/Marty/June%202%20LTarget%20and%20dwell.vemscfg (http://www.vems.hu/files/Marty/June%202%20LTarget%20and%20dwell.vemscfg)
You can see from a quick scan of the previous image that it's not at exactly a set rpm, but it does not occur until I'm in the positive pressure range.
Also of note is the saw tooth shape at regular intervals. To me, this suggests a controller, or configuration setting that is 'pulling back' or something. The power seems very weak while this is happening... perhaps my timing is just horrible in these ranges...
I tried disabling the boost controller so far and it did not affect anything, next I'll try the IAC, and then I'm not sure. Racking my brain here...
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I don´t know if it´s 5cyl specific but you are getting strange individual power measurements.
IP 2 and 4 seem to be 200uS offset vs IP 0 and then IP3 is -300uS offset again.
All that changes fairly instantly at 3700rpm in the boost portion of the log.
Also your boost solenoid is ramped to 100% which doesn´t make good sense to me.
I´d also reccomend you go over your settings and disable anything you are not specifically using.
I can´t see a ecu problem from the log.
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Thanks for the note, these numbers refer to the ignition power outputs? I'm not sure how to understand the positive and negative values(?).
Here's my list of "To do's" after I looked over every configuration page last night
Note: All of these are given with my novice level of understanding
1) set spark dwell to 2.3ms (Could be related to the power issue)
2) disable cam slop adjustment (do I still need this? it was set for troubleshooting, but turned out to Not be the issue)
3) Cam sensor to Falling? (Hall sensor, currently set as "rising", but I'm not having any triggering issues. Maybe not necessary)
4) injector model method (should I try the Simple method instead, perhaps traditional is a poor model for my setup?)
5) ignition and injector order correct? (Gints gave me the reconfigured base map, but I seem to recall he said I may need to re-order my injectors. I'm not sure whether injection order is handled in the code logic, or if I use the same order as ignition?)
Note: My Ignition and Injector outputs correspond with the cylinder. Ign[0] and Inj[0] = cylinder 1, and so on
6) Test overall Boost controller functionality
disable adjustabe fuel cut (Not sure I need this)
7) MAT TPS fuel enrichment doesnt seem right (need to work out what proper values should be)
8) What is the MAP correction table for, compensating for non-linear sensor values?
9) Accel enrich Fadeout increase to .86s (Wanted to do this to compensate for lambda spike on throttle close, maybe not necessary; but what exactly is this for otherwise?)
10) Drop warmup enrichment curve to zero at 60c (Seems to stay in Warmup for a long time, and sometimes re-enter warmup while driving)
11) IAC Close delay is set at 40s? (Can this be right? If so, I'm guessing it's 40s after startup; but shouldn't the IAC be closed on Startup?
12) IAC cranking same thought as above, shouldn't this be a low value to increase fuel denstiy?
13) boost control to prior values
14) Misc output 1 -> 4000(min), Min MAP 250 ( I have the relay for a water/meth pump attached to this output. Will increase the activation threshold to peak output range)
15) Tach Channel to 3 (Tach not working, I have the value set incorrectly at pin 4, but it should be pin 3)
16) CLT Sensor to bosch standard. (I'm a little concerned because I unknowingly drove about 15 miles yesterday, twice with no cooling fan. Turns out my relay was cooked, so I pulled into a parts store to get a new one and started paying attention to how hot it feels. This thing is getting awfully hot, just about enough to melt the harness... I suspect either the fan is on it's way out or the fan is running way longer than it should due to incorrect CLT curve, or my setting alone. -I'm pretty sure it's the fan and the other 2 are unlikely options, but I don't like being uncertain about the numbers I'm seeing. I never saw above 101 C during those 2 trips, and I thought it should be a lot warmer with no fan.
I'm going to research and investigate these one by one. Any tips would be helpful!
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1) Isn't 2.3 ms dwell very short for the LS2 coils?
2) Disable it.
3) Falling it is. But you can leave it as is.
4) Doesn't matter for your problem.
5) Doesn't matter for your problem.
6) Running 1.2.9+ ? Has a much improved boost controller.
7) MAT/TPS enrichment should be ok in this file : http://www.savarturbo.se/~mattias/motor/vems_data/vemscfg/volvo-b230fk-beta-1.1.96.vemscfg
Lowest 0% TPS row can be raised above the tuned temperature to compensate for badly installed MAT sensors (heat soak)
8 ) MAP compensation is for hot cammed individual throttle body turbo engines. The main VE table is TPS/RPM and this table is tuned as the boost is raised (default 100% in all cells)
9) Accel fade out should be 0.2-0.3 secs. It's how long the enrichment lasts everytime you accelerate.
11) Close delay is how long after the engine leaves idle control that the valve actually closes to your set minimum open position/duty. The delay helps hides the fact that the valve closes, as the driver must compensate with more throttle if the closed position is in fact a "closed" position that lets no air through.
12) Without air, the engine will not fire.
13) Or new boost controller code in more recent firmware.
..
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Thank you for the tips. I'll work on these details and report back.
- I could still use help identifying how to relate ignition order to injector order to get to 'nominal'. there's a missing link in my mind.
I'm at version 1.2.11.
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Individual power graphs is poorly documented and hard to understand/visualize.
It's easy to access through the injector calibration screen.
Just yank the nr 1 cylinder injector connector, and watch which of the pillars drop. Each correspond to a row in the ignition and injection output tables.
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wow... I looked at those graphs and they are quite confusing. Guess I'll do some reading,
but I wasn't sure where to find the calibration screen you were referring to.
Also noticed that I never leave Warmup... I've looked at everything and don't see any issues. Maybe I put a celcius value in somewhere where a binary value is required???
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You have 100C° as your maximum for warmup.
It should be something like 70°C.
After that point it´ll be running no warmup.
What mattias is refering too is in Vemstune - View - Group - Injector Calibration.
There you can see individual cylinder timing (kind off).
Here is some info on individual power. http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=MembersPage%2FGunnarReynisson%2FQuestions
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This last weekend I tried many things to troubleshoot my weak cylinder(s), but I've come to a conclusion that maybe the individual power feature is not very useful at idle, and 0 through low load accelerations.
(I never went for a drive because I have some body work in progress, thus all of my testing was done under the above conditions.)
What I observe when I start the car is that IP0,1,2, and 3 show various mostly positive values during cranking and afterstart. Once afterstart is over, IP 3 goes to -512, and IP4 goes to +508 and stays steady at idle.
- I'm confused about why this 'switch' would occur in general, it just just seems strange to me.
Now, I believe I understand the Individual Power concept pretty clearly and I have an observation from my tests that I don't understand: when one IP is weak, both the adjacent IP's go to +508.
(For example in my case: IP3 shows -512, then IP2 and IP4 both go to +508).
In this case I can understand why IP4 would go up, but why IP2?
Anyway in my testing, I did all of the following:
- traded out each ignition coil with a new one with no positive result
- attempted with 2 new ignition coils just in case there were 2 dead, or one of my replacements was also dead
- verified every single wire for both my injectors and ignition coils. I looked for proper wiring, shorts to ground and shorts to any other lead (at the EC36 connector)
- I swapped positions of my fuel injectors to see if it moved the position of the dead Individual Power output (test for bad injector)
- I replaced my spark plugs
- I replaced my spark plug wires
Much to my surprise and befuddlement, Not one of these things affected the Individual power output in any way... leading me to my conclusion about load above. The only other thing I can come up with is that I have a longer duration cam (from an Audi 7A) installed, and I know this can lead to lopey idle speeds (and thus strange power output values).
Once I get my body work done I'll do some more research with load on the engine. Unfortunately I'm still unable to determine which cylinder it is that's having problems. I read on the forums that there is a direct mapping (shown below), but I was not confident about this being the hard rule with such 'configurable' software. I was hoping someone could assure me(?).
For the record, I tried pulling injector connectors and observing as well as pulling plug wires and observing but the IP graphs and pillars were so 'all over the place' that I could not make heads or tails of it.
Ign_out0 ->individual power2
Ign_out1 ->individual power3
Ign_out2 ->individual power4
Ign_out3 ->individual power0
Ign_out4 ->individual power1
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Not to take away from the post above (still interested in responses), but how does the individual power measurement account for flat spots in the trigger wheel?
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http://www.vems.hu/files/Marty/v3.3_u004574-2013.06.18-19.07.18.vemslog (http://www.vems.hu/files/Marty/v3.3_u004574-2013.06.18-19.07.18.vemslog)
I've been driving my project car around for a few days now and it's pretty fast ;D. Having a good time getting to know it, but now some more tweaks are in order.
I still have a few questions that I could use help with :
1) Is this the rule written in stone for individual power?:
Ign_out0 ->individual power2
Ign_out1 ->individual power3
Ign_out2 ->individual power4
Ign_out3 ->individual power0
Ign_out4 ->individual power1
I need to know this so I can figure out which cylinder is problematic.
2) I have a GReddy Profec B boost control valve, but it doesn't seem to be working properly. Seems I am operating on spring pressure alone. Can I use VEMS to control this valve successfully? All the wiki discussion seems to be research related and not entirely conclusive. Can anyone help me set this up (or understand how)?
3) last question on individual power: for some reason 1 cylinder seems to do the exact opposite of all the others (ex. When 4 cylinders spike to the top, 1 cylinder drops to the minimum); its like it mirrors all the others. What could this mean?
(http://www.vems.hu/files/Marty/log%20snapshot.png)
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Perhaps I can make one of my questions more explicit
ALWAYS TRUE <or> SOMETIMES TRUE <or> FALSE?
Ign_out0 ->individual power2
Ign_out1 ->individual power3
Ign_out2 ->individual power4
Ign_out3 ->individual power0
Ign_out4 ->individual power1
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As I don´t know the ins and outs of the individual power stuff I can´t really comment,
But what tests have you done with your profec valve so far ?
The vems can run it assuming it´s a 2pin solenoid.
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As far as boost control, I had to change to another injector channel because I'm pretty sure I smoked the mosfet on my first attempt...
Now reinstalled, and operating with proper flyback protection, but configuration is my problem.
Physical testing:
- I have verified the valve clicks fine using a 9v battery
- Disassembled the valve and cleared out any debris in the valve added some lubrication
- Verified installation (while closed the compressor housing feeds the waste-gate diaphragm, when open pressure vents to atmosphere)
VEMS Testing:
- I've tried generally messing around with values but I don't really know what I'm doing.
- I have the map set to allow 250 to 280kpa at all rpm ranges, but I never get more than 190kpa, so I assume the valve is working overtime
There seem to be a lot of options for controlling this and I don't understand what each means.
Ideally, I want to put boost values on the map with RPM and MAP as the vertices and I don't care about anything else. Obviously I would try to tune the PID to get rid of flutter and overboost, but I don't think I'm even near that point yet.
Does anything stand out on this config page?
(http://www.vems.hu/files/Marty/BoostConfig.png)
http://www.vems.hu/files/Marty/BoostSettings.vemscfg (http://www.vems.hu/files/Marty/BoostSettings.vemscfg)
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I'm wondering about something in my config; I still have a hard time grasping the Injector and Ign outputs but if someone can answer my question here, that will open the door to my understanding the rest.
- I have a sequential setup,
- my injector channels are:
cyl[1] = inj[1]
cyl[2] = inj[2]
cyl[3] = inj[3]
cyl[4] = inj[4]
cyl[5] = inj[5]
- similarly, my ignition channels are:
cyl[1] = ign[0]
cyl[2] = ign[1]
cyl[3] = ign[2]
cyl[4] = ign[3]
cyl[5] = ign[4]
When I look at this it seems wrong, but due to some things I think I know ???, I'm confused about what the correct configuration would look like.
Note: the car runs, I've been driving it, and I believe the ignition channels are correct (I was helped with these previously); so my question is 'how should the injectors be configured ?
(http://www.vems.hu/files/Marty/INJ-IGN.png)
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I just edited the image I attached, with cylinder #'s on the ignition side. After looking at it again with those it looks correct to me.
I am still investigating why I have one cylinder that appears completely dead most of the time on the Individual power logs, but I am still highly suspicious that it is simply appears that way due to the flat spot on my trigger wheel. No one has yet been able to confirm or deny it.
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In a coming VemsTune version this will all be a lot clearer. The information displayed using the "real cylinder order" will be much more useful and will reflect which cylinder belongs to which individual power and knock gauge. You could actually have used that to your advantage instead of putting text in the screenshot.
To make more sense of what you've got it's my opinion that you have set it up correctly. Now you can tweak the injector angle curve to find the idle and low rpm angle that gets you the richest lambda reading (until you correct = lower the VE table that is).
As far as your trigger, if the rpm reading is still jagged there is definately something bad going on. It should throw trigger errors if it misses any teeth, but it apparently does not? If it's not another "misaligned primary trigger sensor vs starter ring gear" I would look into using other values for the "divbyX" primary trigger setting, what are you using now?
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I have a 60-2, not a flywheel trigger, and I have verified the alignment is good.
Sorry, I'm not familiar with VEMS jargon to know exactly what value divbyX is; is this what you're referring to?
(http://www.vems.hu/files/Marty/sectrig.png)
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I'm still banging away at this project, and it's running much better power and smoothness now.
I'm troubleshooting boost now and I'm hoping for some thoughts on this:
I'm using a GReddy boost solenoid, and it's plumbed as follows
Common (Com) -> Turbo outlet pressure
Normally Open (NO) -> bottom of the OEM audi Wastegate with 1.9bar spring
Normally Closed (NC) -> Atmosphere
What's happening is that I'm hitting peak boost (235 kpa in this case), and it immediately tapers off. I see this behavior pretty much no matter what my PID settings and RefDC are.
To trouble shoot, in the linked log, I just set min and max DC to 70 for one pull, and then 80 for a second pull. There is a minor difference in the 2 pulls but regardless of that, what I see does not reflect what I expected.
http://www.vems.hu/files/Marty/v3.3_u004574-2013.11.05-14.23.49.vemslog (http://www.vems.hu/files/Marty/v3.3_u004574-2013.11.05-14.23.49.vemslog)
Is this a "haha, your problem is obvious" situation or am I missing something in the configurations or what could be going on here?
Note: I've tried gunni's write up settings, and adjusting those here and there. I've also tried various valve frequencies and so on. when max everything out I manag to hit 270 kpa before "boost taper" (as I'll refer to it), but nothing has gotten rid of it so far.
Could it be that it's exhaust pressure opening the gate?
Also a software question: When I look at the RefDC table in a running VEMSLog, only the top RPM row is used, for some reason it doesn't seem to take MAP into account. In other words the little round highlight that traces around the table always stays in the top row(?).
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For me seems you have two issues:
some mechanical. And configuration.
Last week I tuned RS2 replica with ~1.5bar spring@0%DC. And hit 200KPa @20..25% DC. This is usual mark. Not 80%.
You have 80%DC and no boost. So I suggest to check your valve plumbing again. This boost shape is typical when plumbing is wrong.
Then - is your valve really acts. Few weeks ago I had situation where two different solenoids by wiring mistake was connected in series. Electrically. And this gave very narrow valid control range somewhere at 50%DC. Otherwise solenoid was either open or closed.
Second one is settings.
RefDC table at your spring boost should be close to zero. And then sloppy go up.
Boost ctrl works from second row. Not top. Because your boost target is 260 all the time. Fill boost vs TPS table to solve that.
You can start with PID 120 70 70 with limit 100. And probably finish with it. Strategy itself is close to perfect and allow to keep target extremely well.
Beside boost problem you have bad triggering problems!
Gints
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Thank you, I'll verify the plumbing, check the valve and make the changes to my configs.
I'm laughing, because the Boost vs RPM table item is so obvious, for some reason it never occurred to me. ;D
With your familiarity with the Audi 20vt motors, could you verify my plumbing detail plan:
Common (Com) -> Turbo outlet pressure
Normally Open (NO) -> bottom of the OEM audi Wastegate with 1.9bar spring
Normally Closed (NC) -> Atmosphere
The main reason I ask is a side topic: I can't figure out from the plan above how Exhaust pressure to the wastegate is overcome. Or in other words when the BC solenoid duty cycle is high, the pressure in the wastegate should go to atmospheric. Now you have exactly spring pressure which opposes valve open due to exhaust pressure with 1.9bar...
- I don't know how much exhaust pressure builds up, I imagine it depends on turbo and exhaust size. Perhaps its negligible, but I thought part of the system design was when all other systems fail, exhaust pressure is the final mechanical safety(?)
-I know I need to resolve my trigger error, but I don't spend much time at 6500 rpm yet, so it's not at the top of the list ;D
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With your familiarity with the Audi 20vt motors, could you verify my plumbing detail plan:
Common (Com) -> Turbo outlet pressure
Normally Open (NO) -> bottom of the OEM audi Wastegate with 1.9bar spring
Normally Closed (NC) -> Atmosphere
Ouch! This is NOT right! COM goes to WG bottom. NO to pressure. NC to atmosphere. Idea is to make possible to feed full pressure to WG and also fully vent it to atmosphere. Now your WG chamber is either closed or connected to pressure. So - you collect pressure and that's it - chamber stays pressurized and boost is low.
Gints
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Well, I've spent a heck of a long time troubleshooting the cause of really odd individual power readings and it seems like I have been over, and improved every detail of my setup at least twice, all with NO affect whatsoever on the problem.
Last night I concluded it must be my main trigger configuration.
Previously I thought this couldn't possibly be wrong because someone trusted provided me the config and viola! it solved my former no start problem. (It got me over the hump of "first time startup on VEMS" which I was having trouble with).
Last night I took a deep analytical look at the config, and I'm surprised that the current configuration hasn't blown my engine to pieces (or more likely melted it haha)!
btw, no discredit to the person who helped me(!), I believe I took it for granted that I didn't need to tweak the base configuration
I would like to run this by folks, because I have a bit of confusion still.
Basic parameters are:
- 5 cyl
- VR Primary Trigger
- Crank pulley mounted 60-2
- 60-2 missing tooth location is centered with the TDC timing mark on the pulley
- VR Sensor is located ~17 teeth before TDC (~102 degrees)
Here is the config given which allowed the engine to start and run (This is hard to believe, for me!)
(http://www.vems.hu/files/Marty/trig%20settings.png)
I did a timing test this morning with ignition locked at 0 and I'm showing about 30 degrees retard. I'm surprised it's even that close to correct given the config above(!?)
Here is my proposed configuration but it seems there may be some special Juju required to configuring for a 5 Cylinder (which I may not have!). -Any reason this shouldn't work?
(http://www.vems.hu/files/Marty/suggested%20trig%20settings.png)
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Actually I see it now...
5 - 3 - 1 - 2 - 4
If I trace the drawing in that order, I see it's correct. I need to adjust my distance between zero tooth and trigger because I'm currently showing about 30 degrees of retard at 0 timing lock.
I'll try to sort that out this evening and probably back off my ignition map some to be safe
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I doubt its the case but my req_fuel was much lower than what was recommended by Marc at EFIExpress but I figured that out eventually. Also my car would not start because of the physical FET straps problem sort of like yours. Not saying that's your problem obviously but I do think you should start with a recommended config file directly from Marc at EFIExpress to get up and running. Im sure if you email him he will be happy to help. Hes been great to me so far. Good luck dude.