VEMS Community Forum
Technical => Triggering => Topic started by: bcool on October 23, 2007, 10:34:51 am
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My VR trigger consists of a 24 tooth wheel that rotates at half the engine crank speed which is 12 teeth per revolution. I've removed 2 teeth for a home signal, but i cant get the VEMS to respond to the Crank angle sensor under Multitooth but i can get it to make a response if i list it under "coil type" I'm spinning it at a decent rate too on the table.
I might be an idiot but i have no clue what the tooth relative setting are or know if they really matter.
(http://myweb.cableone.net/mjbless/vems/trigger.jpg)
My CAS
(http://myweb.cableone.net/mjbless/vems/CAS.jpg)
This is going off of jason russel's drawing
(http://www.vems.hu/files/MembersPage/JasonRussell/trigger_setup.png)
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Which firmware version are you using? The relative teeth may have some use in the newer ones.
Spinning by hand on a VR sensor like that is likely to cause issues, getting a stable enough spin will be the problem - for this testing I use a pillar drill (drill press to our American cousins) I tried all matter of hand spinning techniques when messing with the Toyota triggers (which are the same pattern - Denso I think...)
Did you think about using the second two teeth on the outer ring and using the 24+2 (12+1) triggering?
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Yes this is a denso unit. I may try it in the car under normal cranking conditions. Do you think it will show up under megatune if it is getting a consistent pulse for verification?
I'm using Version 1.0.73rc2. I think i may have messed around with the "relative" settings on accident so i'm not sure if they're correct or not and i'm not really sure to what values i'm supposed to be setting them up as.
I think that the picture may also be a bit deceiving. Are you talking about using the 2 stock home signal teeth above the 24 tooth wheels as the secondary "cam sync" sensor?
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I'd always look at the signal at cranking, it will show if you have any issues with noise (which can bite you when you least expect it :( )
Relative trigger is only used if special filtering is selected, you wont need it.
The home signals would give the same solution as the missing teeth.
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When we get this TPS/MAP issue figured out i'll try it on the car.
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Eh nothing at all under cranking conditions
http://myweb.cableone.net/mjbless/vems/crank.mpg
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To check that your trigger is getting anything at all switch type to Coil-type and set all your filters options to disabled.
Cranking the engine should yeild an RPM reading, all be it a wrong one.
If you get nothing at all then I'd recommend using the signalgen program to generate a test signal through your PC speakers.
Also check the voltage going to the VR chip, and check that the P259 is not dead.
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Ahhh yeah, like i said before when i switch to coil type when i'm cranking i get a 700-800RPM trigger out of it
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Okay so its electrically correct, next thing to do is look at the trigger logging
http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=InputTrigger%2FTriggerLog
I wrote up some of my Toyota triggering tests which is 24+4 so its very similar to yours:
http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=VehicleFitment%2FToyota
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Here's what i got I'm not sure how to convert these into the format. I assume you have to use perl.
Here's the log file:
http://myweb.cableone.net/mjbless/vems/trigger.log
And heres the gibberish in the terminal program itself (i dont know if this is used):
http://myweb.cableone.net/mjbless/vems/gibberish.txt
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You know...i've never tried flip flopping the 2 wires around do you think that it could make a difference?
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Seems to be fixed, i had the wires bacwords Doh!
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So apparently its not fixed i have a signal but its spotty. I get an even strong crank and it jumps around every once in a while.
Heres the megatune logs
http://myweb.cableone.net/mjbless/vems/crank1.xls
http://myweb.cableone.net/mjbless/vems/crank2.xls
And my new Terminal trigger log:
http://myweb.cableone.net/mjbless/vems/triggerworking.log
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The first things to look at are the engine grounds and the sheilding on the trigger wires.
Next we're going to need to try some pull-down resistors, try a 270ohm pull-down (trigger line to ground) to see if that gets more stability. If that doesn't work remove the pull-down and try pulling up the trigger line, use a resistor starting at 10K between Vbatt and trigger line, and decrease the resistance value.
Here is your trigger log formatted with binary.pl, you can read about what it meams on the Wiki page:
http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=InputTrigger%2FTriggerLog
1 84 1
2 21605 1
3 25886 308.16 MISSINGTOOTH 1.5
4 7688 0.35
5 2039 0.07
6 63233 8.22 MISSINGTOOTH 3
7 248 0.12
8 63486 1
9 64959 261.93 MISSINGTOOTH 3
10 48896 0.77
11 79 0
12 20219 0.41
13 64177 812.36 MISSINGTOOTH 2
14 45311 2.24 MISSINGTOOTH 4
15 65353 1.01
16 18694 0.41
17 1532 0.02
18 64414 3.44 MISSINGTOOTH 2
19 40415 26.38 MISSINGTOOTH 3
20 57175 0.88
21 22320 0.55
22 12292 0.21
23 966 0.04
24 50619 4.11 MISSINGTOOTH 3
25 47863 49.54 MISSINGTOOTH 3
26 63248 1.24
27 4094 0.08
28 65026 1.02
29 519 0.12
30 1789 0.02
31 64764 124.78 MISSINGTOOTH 3
32 64513 36.06 MISSINGTOOTH 4
33 254 0
34 65031 1
35 1776 6.99 MISSINGTOOTH 2
36 61430 0.94
37 62976 35.45 MISSINGTOOTH 1
38 10 0
39 2586 0.04
40 6651 665.1 MISSINGTOOTH 4
41 64246 24.84 MISSINGTOOTH 2
42 62984 9.46 MISSINGTOOTH 1
43 2049 0.03
44 247 0
45 63215 30.85 MISSINGTOOTH 2
46 61215 247.83 MISSINGTOOTH 2
47 7981 0.12
48 11450 0.18
49 47584 5.96 MISSINGTOOTH 2
50 57379 5.01 MISSINGTOOTH 2
51 8960 0.18
52 0 0
53 0 0
54 0 1
55 0 1
56 0 1
57 0 1
58 0 1
59 0 1
60 0 1
61 0 1
62 0 1
63 0 1
64 0 1
65 0 1
66 0 1
67 0 1
68 0 1
69 0 1
70 0 1
71 0 1
72 0 1
73 0 1
74 0 1
75 0 1
76 0 1
77 0 1
78 0 1
79 0 1
80 0 1
81 0 1
82 0 1
83 0 1
84 0 1
85 0 1
86 0 1
87 0 1
88 0 1
89 0 1
90 0 1
91 0 1
92 0 1
93 0 1
94 0 1
95 0 1
96 65501 1
97 56531 1
98 54006 0.82
99 62976 1.11
100 0 0
101 0 0
102 0 1
103 0 1
104 0 1
105 0 1
106 0 1
107 0 1
108 0 1
109 0 1
110 0 1
111 0 1
112 0 1
113 0 1
114 0 1
115 0 1
116 0 1
117 0 1
118 0 1
119 0 1
120 0 1
121 0 1
122 0 1
123 0 1
124 0 1
125 65 1
126 16686 1
127 11890 182.92 MISSINGTOOTH 39
128 29227 1.75 MISSINGTOOTH 39
129 10845 0.91
130 23884 0.81
131 19495 1.79 MISSINGTOOTH 2
132 9913 0.41
133 47360 2.42 MISSINGTOOTH 1
134 15 0
135 3875 0.08
136 8858 590.53 MISSINGTOOTH 4
137 39456 10.18 MISSINGTOOTH 2
138 8429 0.95
139 60704 1.53 MISSINGTOOTH 1
140 8052 0.95
141 29726 0.48
142 7688 0.95
143 2078 0.06
144 7756 1
145 19487 9.37 MISSINGTOOTH 3
146 7974 1.02
147 9502 0.48
148 7674 0.96
149 64029 6.73 MISSINGTOOTH 2
150 7444 0.97
151 5148 0.08
152 7123 0.95
153 54075 10.5 MISSINGTOOTH 2
154 15074 2.11 MISSINGTOOTH 9
155 57883 1.07
156 6908 0.45
157 64540 1.11
158 7154 1.03
159 61981 0.96
160 7360 1.02
161 49180 0.79
162 7259 0.98
163 23068 0.46
164 7055 0.97
165 36636 1.58 MISSINGTOOTH 6
166 7128 1.01
167 55324 1.51 MISSINGTOOTH 1
168 7284 1.02
169 29724 0.53
170 7140 0.98
171 58395 1.96 MISSINGTOOTH 2
172 6939 0.97
173 6938 0.11
174 6673 0.96
175 4408 0.63
176 14421 2.16 MISSINGTOOTH 11
177 21787 4.94 MISSINGTOOTH 3
178 6700 0.46
179 11035 0.5
180 6981 1.04
181 17692 1.6 MISSINGTOOTH 2
182 7212 1.03
183 11292 0.63
184 7223 1
185 14107 1.24
186 6966 0.96
187 13852 0.98
188 6924 0.99
189 3099 0.22
190 7050 1.01
191 35355 11.4 MISSINGTOOTH 5
192 6904 0.97
193 63515 1.79 MISSINGTOOTH 1
194 6812 0.98
195 39961 0.62
196 6621 0.97
197 56377 1.41
198 14339 2.16 MISSINGTOOTH 11
199 794 0.01
200 6684 0.46
201 7195 9.06 MISSINGTOOTH 4
202 7019 1.05
203 27420 3.81 MISSINGTOOTH 1
204 7273 1.03
205 26909 0.98
206 7225 0.99
207 14619 0.54
208 6978 0.96
209 16923 1.15
210 6956 0.99
211 11292 0.66
212 7067 1.01
213 39707 3.51 MISSINGTOOTH 5
214 6964 0.98
215 13083 0.32
216 6824 0.97
217 43033 3.28 MISSINGTOOTH 2
218 6610 0.96
219 53816 1.25
220 14222 2.15 MISSINGTOOTH 11
221 36378 0.67
222 6651 0.46
223 64283 1.76 MISSINGTOOTH 3
224 6919 1.04
225 1820 0.02
226 7172 1.03
227 1052 0.57
228 7181 1
229 3355 3.18 MISSINGTOOTH 3
230 6929 0.96
231 4123 1.22
232 6935 1
233 5916 1.43
234 7110 1.02
235 50715 8.57 MISSINGTOOTH 3
236 6966 0.97
237 13851 0.27
238 6834 0.98
239 45594 3.29 MISSINGTOOTH 2
240 6601 0.96
241 51511 1.12
242 14225 2.15 MISSINGTOOTH 11
243 37146 0.72
244 6608 0.46
245 53275 1.43
246 6934 1.04
247 5660 0.1
248 7229 1.04
249 15388 2.71 MISSINGTOOTH 5
250 7208 0.99
251 10268 0.66
252 6920 0.96
253 2074 0.2
254 6888 0.99
255 59420 28.64 MISSINGTOOTH 3
256 7007 1.01
257 24347 0.4
258 6861 0.97
259 52506 2.15 MISSINGTOOTH 2
260 6743 0.98
261 22297 0.42
262 6530 0.96
263 33336 1.49
264 14143 2.16 MISSINGTOOTH 11
265 15898 0.47
266 6645 0.46
267 62747 3.94 MISSINGTOOTH 4
268 6924 1.04
269 3100 0.04
270 7198 1.03
271 7708 2.48 MISSINGTOOTH 2
272 7218 1
273 12827 1.66 MISSINGTOOTH 1
274 6952 0.96
275 10267 0.8
276 6918 0.99
277 1564 0.15
278 7120 1.02
279 53275 34.06 MISSINGTOOTH 3
280 6919 0.97
281 1819 0.03
282 6811 0.98
283 39706 21.82 MISSINGTOOTH 2
284 6645 0.97
285 62520 1.57 MISSINGTOOTH 1
286 14334 2.15 MISSINGTOOTH 11
287 65050 1.04
288 6653 0.46
289 64795 0.99
290 6953 1.04
291 10524 0.16
292 7214 1.03
293 11804 1.12
294 7175 0.99
295 1819 0.15
296 6934 0.96
297 5659 3.11 MISSINGTOOTH 6
298 6956 1
299 11292 1.99 MISSINGTOOTH 1
300 7110 1.02
301 50459 4.46 MISSINGTOOTH 1
302 6980 0.98
303 17435 0.34
304 6811 0.97
305 39705 2.27 MISSINGTOOTH 2
306 6544 0.96
307 36920 0.92
308 14170 2.16 MISSINGTOOTH 11
309 23066 0.62
310 6637 0.46
311 60699 2.63 MISSINGTOOTH 3
312 6943 1.04
313 7964 0.13
314 7280 1.04
315 28701 3.6 MISSINGTOOTH 2
316 7273 0.99
317 26651 0.92
318 6979 0.95
319 17179 0.64
320 6919 0.99
321 1820 0.1
322 7064 1.02
323 38938 21.39 MISSINGTOOTH 4
324 6873 0.97
325 55579 1.42
326 6754 0.98
327 25113 0.45
328 6513 0.96
329 28983 1.15
330 13973 2.14 MISSINGTOOTH 11
331 38169 1.31
332 6558 0.46
333 40476 1.06
334 6951 1.05
335 9756 0.24
336 7308 1.05
337 35868 3.67 MISSINGTOOTH 7
338 7240 0.99
339 18460 0.51
340 7018 0.96
341 27163 1.47
342 7016 0.99
343 26652 0.98
344 7193 1.02
345 6428 0.24
346 7036 0.97
347 31771 4.94 MISSINGTOOTH 5
348 6866 0.97
349 53786 1.69 MISSINGTOOTH 1
350 6670 0.97
351 3384 0.06
352 14418 2.16 MISSINGTOOTH 11
353 21018 6.21 MISSINGTOOTH 2
354 6699 0.46
355 11035 0.52
356 6962 1.03
357 12829 1.16
358 7211 1.03
359 11036 0.86
360 7208 0.99
361 10267 0.93
362 6950 0.96
363 9755 0.95
364 6964 1
365 13340 1.36
366 7112 1.02
367 51227 3.84 MISSINGTOOTH 7
368 6938 0.97
369 6682 0.13
370 6793 0.97
371 34842 5.21 MISSINGTOOTH 2
372 6599 0.97
373 51000 1.46
374 14187 2.14 MISSINGTOOTH 11
375 27417 0.53
376 6585 0.46
377 47387 1.72 MISSINGTOOTH 3
378 6921 1.05
379 2333 0.04
380 7218 1.04
381 12828 5.49 MISSINGTOOTH 2
382 7192 0.99
383 6171 0.48
384 6890 0.95
385 59931 9.71 MISSINGTOOTH 2
386 6896 1
387 61211 1.02
388 7022 1.01
389 28187 0.46
390 6848 0.97
391 49178 1.74 MISSINGTOOTH 3
392 6706 0.97
393 12743 0.25
394 50884 7.58 MISSINGTOOTH 10
395 50211 3.94 MISSINGTOOTH 2
396 8960 0.17
397 0 0
398 0 0
399 0 1
400 0 1
401 0 1
402 0 1
403 0 1
404 0 1
405 0 1
406 0 1
407 0 1
408 0 1
409 0 1
410 0 1
411 0 1
412 0 1
413 0 1
414 0 1
415 0 1
416 0 1
417 0 1
418 0 1
419 0 1
420 0 1
421 0 1
422 0 1
423 0 1
424 0 1
425 0 1
426 0 1
427 0 1
428 0 1
429 0 1
430 0 1
431 0 1
432 0 1
433 0 1
434 0 1
435 0 1
436 0 1
437 0 1
438 0 1
439 0 1
440 0 1
441 65501 1
442 56599 1
443 5975 0.09
444 22320 0.39
445 12292 2.05 MISSINGTOOTH 25
446 966 0.04
447 50619 4.11 MISSINGTOOTH 1
448 47863 49.54 MISSINGTOOTH 27
449 63248 1.24
450 4094 0.08
451 65026 1.02
452 519 0.12
453 1789 0.02
454 64764 124.78 MISSINGTOOTH 3
455 64513 36.06 MISSINGTOOTH 4
456 254 0
457 65031 1
458 1776 6.99 MISSINGTOOTH 2
459 61430 0.94
460 62976 35.45 MISSINGTOOTH 1
461 10 0
462 2586 0.04
463 6651 665.1 MISSINGTOOTH 4
464 64246 24.84 MISSINGTOOTH 2
465 62984 9.46 MISSINGTOOTH 1
466 2050 0.03
467 508 0
468 64494 31.46 MISSINGTOOTH 2
469 60954 119.98 MISSINGTOOTH 2
470 6701 0.1
471 11450 0.18
472 47608 7.1 MISSINGTOOTH 2
473 63588 5.55 MISSINGTOOTH 2
474 25631 0.53
475 7858 0.12
476 45576 1.77 MISSINGTOOTH 2
477 2127 0.27
478 20219 0.44
479 64177 30.17 MISSINGTOOTH 3
480 45311 2.24 MISSINGTOOTH 2
481 65353 1.01
482 18694 0.41
483 1532 0.02
484 64414 3.44 MISSINGTOOTH 2
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I have 12-1 problems just. I have similar setup like yours but using hall. So investigation was shorter. It was almost impossible to get stable readings at cranking. especialy if engine start firing. Finally I record signal with scope and visually found that it is hard found missing tooth - there was two gaps: one real gap ~90deg btdc and second - at tdc because of compression. so my solution was to reorient missing tooth back closer to tdc of 2&3 cil. so no more triggering errors.
Before i try everything: special n-1, rising/falling edge, batch of filtering settings with filtering on - no changes. looks like filtering do not work at all on 1.0.73 (?) - cant even get worthier/no triggering with utopian settings.
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The wiki is filled (if you can find them) with errors caused by modified trigger wheels.
The pull-up/down resistors may get you some of the way towards a usuable signal.
The way the LM1815 works ( http://www.ee.washington.edu/stores/DataSheets/linear/lm1815.pdf ) is that it produces a trigger when the signal voltage crosses zero from positive. So if during the missing tooth, a noise spike occurs the chip will trigger and the gap will not be identified...
Basically a pull-down reduces the total voltage seen by the LM1815 so noise gets dampened out and it won't false trigger.
A Pull-up increases the 'zero' voltage so that noise spikes can't rise above the zero voltage so they can't fall below it.
On the Toyota 24+4 (4A-GE) setup we tested we found that the ground voltage was 0.6v, which went to show that they were expecting a very noisy trigger, it turned out that they had put a load of filtering in the ECU, the reason transpired - they'd not used shielded wire on the stock looms.
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I'm not sheilded either and i tied my CAS in with the ground for the TPS, CTS, and the IATS
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It runs! Although i think i blew up a coil.