VEMS Community Forum
Technical => Triggering => Topic started by: sink on March 20, 2011, 09:04:31 pm
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Hi all!
So the weather is getting warmer here and I'd love to get my S2 running finally.
Before christmas I left my car unattended becauase it got very frustrateing.
I'm haveing trigger errors, mainly primary trigger error and also Vemstune shows "less secondary trigger"
The primary trigger error is blinking all the time, but the car runs, I've even cruised around in it a few times to see what's going on, but nothing :(
My main thought at this moment is that maybe I have the VR wires connected the wrong way, there was a topic where one bloke also had trigger errors due to that mix-up.
So, at this moment my question is - what/how should the VR sensor triggering be for VEMS? A nice question I know ;D I mean that I'm getting a scope for next weekend to check triggering and I don't know which way should the triggering show up on the scope, should it be POSITIVE or NEGATIVE.
If I don't make sence then please tell me and I'll try to put my thoughts in writing again. I haven't used english for a long time and it's quite hard to make sense right now :D
When I'll get the answer I'll check all I can aswell (this, and other wireing and stuff) and when still no luck I'll upload my confugiration, make some logs and post them here :)
Oh yeah, almost forgot, the car is an Audi S2 with a 3B (162kW) engine. BUT I'm NOT using the distributor for ignition anymore, instead using the 1.8T coils. Although the distributor is still in use for the HALL-sensor. And I made the coil mod a long time ago when still using the Motrinic ECU and at those times I never had any errors in the ECU, unless I was to blame for them ::)
Oh, and the TDC is 72 degrees on my car right now only that it should be 58 degrees :S - I thought this was worth mentioning, and yes I got this "reading" by using a strobelight with VEMS locked on 15 degrees.
Thanks for any help infront:)
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The VR trigger edge is always rising with the current VEMS v3 hardware.
Why wait ? Posting a triggerlog and .vemslog (or .vemscfg) is not going to hurt your chances of getting help.
I'm pretty sure you've misunderstood how to use the strobe light. Lock the advance to 0 degrees, and then align the TDC marks by adjusting "TDC after the trigger", it should probably be at 58 degrees.
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So You mean that when I hook up the oschilloscope to the VR sensor then the graph-tip on the scope should be upwards? Just rechecking :D
What I did with the strobe light was - the car was running on idle, then I locked the ignition on 15 degrees and started to check with light if it really was 15 degrees - no it's wasn't. So I configured the values in the "TDC after the trigger" window til the light also showed 15 degrees as on what the ignition was locked on. This happened when I inputted TDC afer the trigger 72 degrees.
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On the scope, the positive going part of the signal at the zero crossing is what should trigger the scope (just as it triggers the ECU).
I'm not sure what you're going to see with the scope, first you should post a triggerlog and a vemslog, and have peer review verify your configuration.
If you have a strobe light where you can set the advance, in order for the strobe light to delay the light the set amount of degrees, then what you did should be correct. It doesn't sound like that is what you did..
In case you had a proper degree wheel with markings, then the 15 degree marking should have aligned with the mark on the engine for this to be correct.
In essence, you are 15 degrees retarded - making for hot exhaust gases.
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Yes, I have a strobe light where I can set the advance. This is the problem with the language barrier - can't make myself understandable :D I'll try to explain again. I let the car idle on locked 15 degrees advanced ignition. Then with the srobe light started looking for the 0 marking on the flywheel through the small gap in the gearbox housing. When TDC after the trigger was 72 and idle ignition still locked on 15 degrees then also the strobe light showed 15 degrees when the mark was in place.
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This is my latest config file:
paar muutust.vemscfg - 12.2 KB (http://uploading.com/files/64m8dc63/paar%2Bmuutust.vemscfg/)
and this is the latest log:
v3.3_n000620-2011.01.13-11.51.24.vemslog - 175.5 KB (http://uploading.com/files/723327c4/v3.3_n000620-2011.01.13-11.51.24.vemslog/)
Sorry for posting such links but I didn't have any other place where to put them :(
So, things worth mentioning - everyone who opens my config file may notice that in Primary trigger setting in the window "first trigger tooth" stands a value of 8 and "next trigger tooth" has a value of 18 - Yes I know this isn't logical but this is the only way the car will start-up and work. When I change "first trigger tooth" value from 8 to 0 the car runs, but very very badly and usually doesn't start - bangs and stuff.
If anyone would be kind enough to PLEASE look my config over and make necessary changes and/or let me know what has to be changed or what should I change, I'd be very grateful :)
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With trigger tooth = 8 and "divby3", all trigger teeth are 8 degrees wide, that means 8x8 = 64 degrees offset from what everyone else are using.
Confused.. is it with trigger tooth 0 that you got 72 degrees "TDC after the trigger"?
Are you using the stock TDC mark, looking at the flywheel?
A triggerlog from cranking the engine would be a good idea.
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Yes and yes ofcourse I'm using the stock mark on the flywheel. Confused? So am I and that I've been for a long time now.
I also tried setting "TDC after the trigger" on 58 and "first trigger" tooth on 0, well that actually wasn't nice to the car :( It banged and kicked and also the fireing was so off that when crancking it kicked the engine in reverse - stopping the engine. Did not try that anymore.
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With the correct settings, make a triggerlog while cranking (WOT = flood clear, or pull the injector connectors).
If I was you I would verify exactly where cyl 1 is igniting with cranking advance = 0 degrees.
It is hard to see on these engines due to the mark being on the flywheel, I suggest making your own mark up front where there is a better chance to see what's going on.
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OK, will try to find enough time to do that tomorrow. Any tips how to make a trigger log? I haven't tried that before. Tools-Analyze/record trigger logs?
Did You check my log or config? Does anything stand out there?
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Vemstune -> tools -> trigger analyser
Take plugs out, fuel Pump relay out.
Disable secondary trigger and get good primery signal.
VR goes from - to + check with piece of metal aproching sensor and dvm going from - to + in mv range. Check shielded wire of sensor is connected to vems box only. If this is good check secondary sensor degrees of sensing. It resets to zero. Put leds in all connectors
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So, nothing good to report, mainly because I haven't got any time on workdays. I couldn't get a reading from a scope because the car battery was already quite dead and it couldn't power the scope on start :( Will try that again tomorrow with a recharged battery. Also I didn't have any more time to make a trigger log, it's also on my tomorrows to-do list.
But what I managed to check out was: I reversed the VR cables and inputted the "right" values (right values as in - like everyone else has them) meaning TDC after the trigger=58 and first trigger tooth=0 But this didn't do anything good, the ignition wasn't in the right spot at all.
If You ask why would I try such a stupid thing, then the answer is - I had to try this because I NEVER swapped the wires in the beginning cause they seemed to be swapped and as it didn't start this time I'm quite certain that they were in the right order in the first place (maybe the 3B engine loom has them already in the right order for VEMS or has a previous owner run it on another ECU before.)
So the next things on my list are: make a trigger log and start checking the sensor and wireing.
Has anyone got something else to recommend aswell?
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Get a strobe light set up on cyl 1 coil, since you've done this before you probably have already made a temporary adapter between coil and spark plug for the pickup.
Just changing trigger settings like that without using a strobe light first to verify is playing a game of chance.
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OK, but what value/values should I change then to get it in the right place?
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How much, and what needs adjusting, depends on how far off cyl 1 is from igniting at the correct spot.
Ideally you keep TDC after the trigger at around 60 degrees, don't touch that unless fine tuning less than a trigger tooth width.
Rougher steps can be made with the "first trigger tooth", each tooth being 6 degrees.
If you need to adjust a lot, consider that each cylinder is offset from the previous/next by 144 degrees, and means the next option is shifting the ignition output table in the direction you need.
Those are the only variables that you might need to adjust.
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Would You or someone explain to me the logic behind the first trigger tooth and next trigger tooth.
I have trouble understanding, if TDC after the trigger is 72 degrees, first trigger tooth 8 and next trigger tooth 18 - How does this work?
To me it seems to be 10 degrees between first trigger and next (18-8=10) but the next after that is already 18 degrees and the next after that also 18??? Yes I've gotten very mixed-up :(
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Som basics first :
Like I said earlier, every tooth is 8 degrees wide with this trigger type. (360 degrees, 135 teeth on flywheel, divided by 3).
Next trigger tooth is the distance between cylinder events, counted in number of teeth. In number of degrees it's 720 degrees / 5 cyls = 144, and is easily verified since 18 teeth x 8 degrees = 144 degrees.
With the case of a "simple" trigger like this, the cam sync tells the ECU to reset the trigger tooth counter which syncs up the ECU with the 4-stroke cycle. After cam sync it begins by waiting for the "first trigger tooth" and then uses the reference tooth table to identify each cylinder event.
After seeing the cam sync signal, it will wait "tooth width" degrees x "first trigger tooth", in your case = 0 since you should be using "first trigger tooth" = 0, not 8x8 = 64 degrees after cam sync signal.
The "TDC after the trigger" tells it exactly how many degrees until each cylinder reaches TDC from it's corresponding reference tooth. It's desireable to keep this number at least 10 degrees above the highest advance your engine will be using to give a margin for calculations, there are even exceptions depending on trigger type.
First trigger tooth is tooth "0" in the reference table, and is the start of the ignition firing order - which doesn't need to begin with cyl 1, the ignition output table can be shifted in order depending on when the signals mechanically must occur.
Depending on the type of primary trigger the cam sync pulse is handled differently, I won't explain the details of all the ways it can work - all you as the user has to worry about is to strobe cyl 1 and identify where in the ignition order it is located. Especially with modern engines it can really be hard to see this since there are so few markings and if you're far off you can't really tell anything, like with the Audi 5 cyl. Even worse is when the markings are not even at TDC like the Volvo 5 cyls, those marks are only used to align crank and cams when assembling the engine. In such cases the best thing is to make your own TDC markings.
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Can this be caused by the distributor not beeing in it's correct position - like half a turn?
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That would definately be a possibility!
The engine should still run just fine but with different ignition output table and primary trigger settings. Obviously doing it the right way is preferable..
If it is so, then it would mask out the home tooth on the wrong rotation of the crank, causing you to have a very different ignition order since the cam will be half a turn "wrong" when the cam sync pulse occurs. Events happen at 0, 144, 288, 432 and 576 degrees. If you add 360 degrees to that you'll shift events, and they won't have the same offset to the cam sync as the "normal" signal.
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Well now this sounds like my problem. If You checked my config (yes?/no?) then You should see that my ignition and injector outputs also primary trigger settings aren't in that order as people using VEMS on Audis are used to see them.
Well, well, well... will have a look at that first thing tomorrow :)
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Now this is getting more and more confusing more me :S
First of all I rechecked the engine today, everything - the camshafts, flywheel and distributor were all aligned as they should be. Then I turned the distributor 180 degrees and guess what - no more trigger or secondary trigger errors. But now the distributor isn't alligned with it's markings - well okay, that shouldn't be that important. But as Mattias has mentioned before - if the Hall sensor isn't in place then the engine would work but just with other ignition outputs and trigger settings. But I ONLY rotated my distributor and tried to start the engine and it did fire up - it ran very very rich and also it kinda misfired :S I think there's something wrong with my settings
Also did a short log of the car trying to idle http://uploading.com/files/b5b6aa36/v3.3_n000620-2011.03.22-12.27.48.vemslog/ (http://uploading.com/files/b5b6aa36/v3.3_n000620-2011.03.22-12.27.48.vemslog/)
These are my current primary trigger settings
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y102/agz/primary_trigger_setting.jpg)
This is my current ignition outputs table
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y102/agz/ign_outputs_table.jpg)
This is my current injector group table
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y102/agz/inj_group_table.jpg)
What should I change, what's wrong?
Or can anybody give me a good base config from where I can start working off, all the right trigger, injector and ignition setting already in place.
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Get a strobe light set up on cyl 1 coil, since you've done this before you probably have already made a temporary adapter between coil and spark plug for the pickup.
Just changing trigger settings like that without using a strobe light first to verify is playing a game of chance.
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But I ONLY rotated my distributor and tried to start the engine and it did fire up - it ran very very rich and also it kinda misfired :S I think there's something wrong with my settings
Also did a short log of the car trying to idle http://uploading.com/files/b5b6aa36/v3.3_n000620-2011.03.22-12.27.48.vemslog/ (http://uploading.com/files/b5b6aa36/v3.3_n000620-2011.03.22-12.27.48.vemslog/)
Or can anybody give me a good base config from where I can start working off, all the right trigger, injector and ignition setting already in place.
Are you sure you are running very rich? You are only using 1,0 - 1,2ms Pulsewidth in the datalog.
Not even the sloppy 1680cc´s uses that low PW at ~1800rpm.
Heres an 3b Audi I did last year: http://www.vems.hu/files/ErikEnglund/Configs/v3.3_n002155-2010.09.29-20.39.54.zip (http://www.vems.hu/files/ErikEnglund/Configs/v3.3_n002155-2010.09.29-20.39.54.zip)
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Well lambda was fluctuateing between 0.7....0.8 It should be seen in the log. (Also I could feel it in my eyes that it was rich - they started to water after running the car for about a minute.)
I'll get the srobe light back and will start thinking hard near the car :)
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Did you upload the correct logfile ? It seems to me like the engine barely has any fuel at all.
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What the "F" IT is lean ??? When I was in the garage a friend poked around in my Vemstune and when I got back behind the computer every gauge on the display was missing besides the sec trigger one :D So I only glimpsed on the lcd display, seems that I made it up in my mind :-\
And because I was at work from then til now I didn't have the chance to look it over again myself, my apologies :(
Erikk the config that You shared - is it from an original 3B - meaning the ignition is still divided by the distributor? At least it seemed so to me.
And I'll stay quiet for a few days now til I get things more sorted out.
But still a very big "thank you" to you all for helping so far :)
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Erikk the config that You shared - is it from an original 3B - meaning the ignition is still divided by the distributor? At least it seemed so to me.
Yes, that config is for distributor-ignition, so dont use it straight out of the box.
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I actually asked for another config to see how other cars have set up their trigger setting and ignition outputs :)
So I had a go in the garage again today, seems that I might "get there" :D Just have to get a working strobe light for next time and set up the fireing order how the mechanics want it - like Mattias told me to do.
Am I right by saying that the fireing order on 3B, 7A and AAN engines is 1-2-4-5-3?
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So I got the car running finally without any errors :-) Also I now know why the log showed that the car was running lean but why I thought it was running rich. This was because the IAC was stuck in it's fully opened position. I disconnected the IAC valve and the car started to run normal :-)
The thing to my triggering error lied in the distributor, seems that now it is in it's working position. Also then I had to rearrange the ignition outputs because the fireing order then didn't line up with the engine's working order. As this engines fireing order is 1-2-4-5-3 I had to arrange the ignition outputs in byone step 2-4-5-3-1
Now the engine works nicely ;)(http://)
But NOW I can't get the injectors sorted out because I haven't got a clue how VEMS manages them. If the car is idelling then I can set the injectors however I want them and the car works the same >:(
But the injector HAS TO inject into the cylinder in its intake stroke.
As I've seen other configs then there the injector outputs are set diagonally in the table
As in I've set them like this
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y102/agz/inj_group_table.jpg)
This is just an exaple - in this version the injection order should be 3-1-2-4-5
So why do all others set them diagonally because then the order seems to be 5-4-3-2-1 :-\
To my understanging if the fireing order of the engine is 1-2-4-5-3 then the right injection order should be 4-5-3-1-2 That when cyl 1 is fireing then cyl 4 should be in it's intake stroke WHEN the injector should fire. Do I atleast have the basic understanding right? :D
So would someone PLEASE explain to me why everyone manages there injector outputs diagonally in the table?
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When you don't have a firmware with injector angle curve, you'll always be "wrong" so having a "diagonal" in the output table or not doesn't matter much (it does, but not in the good way).
The idea is to have the cyl 1 injector and ignition coil in the same position (row), the angle curve then delays the injection end angle according to the curve. Press F1 to see good defaults. The angle is referenced to each cylinders TDC on it's power stroke.