VEMS Community Forum
Members => Projects & Installs => Topic started by: jadzwin on October 11, 2007, 10:03:13 am
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Hello,
Due to suggestion of Rob I start topic about my project here.
(http://www.ecumaster.com/espero/pacjent.jpg)
Current setup of my car:
Holden/Opel C20LE engine with 8V head and modified bottom (c20xe pistons and rods). The engine on this setup is proven to stand at least 320HP and 400Nm. Original ECU is (was ;)) Delco IEFI-6 with distributor, full group injection, no KS.
The turbocharger is Garret TB2538 with big custom FMIC. In addition 320ccm injectors working on 4 bars, Wallbro high pressure fuel pump, 20seh camshaft with regulated pulley. The ignition, fuel and boost are modified by Ecumaster piggy back. The best dyno result is 240HP and 360Nm @ 1.1 bar.
But it is a past :)
On Tuesday I have connected Vems and my car is already drivable (not perfect but I can reach my workplace :))
It opens new chapter in my car history :)
Already I have prepared GT28RS with the bigest AR (.86), water injection system, opel C20XE 16V head, clutch modified by Radzikowski (it should stand at least 600Nm). In 19.10.2007 I will start to rebuild the engine. I will post photos of work progression.
I hope that in 1 week I will be able to put everything together.
My goal is to achieve 400Nm and 320HP on the current engine bottom. If everything will be ok, I will put forged Wiseco pistons and Pauter rods and I want to increase power to 350HP, and add nitrous "shot" at least +100HP.
I would like to use this car for 1/4mile in "street legal" class.
Actually I have some problems with afr during idle (lambda about 0.8-0.85 to run smoth) but i suspect 2 things:
1) Ignition advance problem,
2) I've just discovered that injectors wires inside the original Daewoo loom are connected together so I have still "full group" injection.
I need to fix it.
Jadzwin
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Nice one ;D
You will find that idle is massively cleaned up when you inject sequentially and adjust the Inj effective rampup values.
What PW are you getting at idle? And what is your current Inj effective rampup?
Are you using the transient diode in the flyback.
Rob
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Hello,
Here are current injectors settings:
(http://www.ecumaster.com/espero/injSettings.jpg)
PW at idle (actually about 1100 rpm) is about 1.4ms
Yes I use transient diode in the flyback.
Thanks
Jadzwin
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1.4ms probably means that the injectors aren't opening properly, I'm guessing that you're injecting once every trigger, if you were to use divider of 2 you'd need to double the req_fuel, and I bet you'd get an idle PW of something like 2.1ms with much cleaner emissions.
The real advantage is to get them squirting sequentially, half the req_fuel and double the VE to get some really nice resolution in the idle and part throttle part of the map.
With transient diode you are best to set the Inj open time to 0
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Thank you very much for your advices.
I will make injectors working sequentially.
Actually I've already half the req fuel to get better resolution :)
I also set inj. open time to 0.
Here are two pictures of instalation. The first is orginal ECU that control the fuel, stepper motor, etc, and Vems controlling ignition.
(http://www.ecumaster.com/espero/vems2.jpg)
The second is Vems alone controling everything :) The "case" is the best :)
(http://www.ecumaster.com/espero/vems1.jpg)
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Hello,
Today was the first day of making next evolution of my car.
The plan was to remove engine from the car.
Here are some pictures.
Under the hood (8V, 240HP)
(http://www.ecumaster.com/espero/EVO3/DAY1/pic1.jpg)
Preparing engine to remove
(http://www.ecumaster.com/espero/EVO3/DAY1/pic2.jpg)
Why doesn't engine want to go out ? Thats the question :)
(http://www.ecumaster.com/espero/EVO3/DAY1/pic3.jpg)
Oil leaks :( Lots of cleaning on monday :(
(http://www.ecumaster.com/espero/EVO3/DAY1/pic4.jpg)
The head with manifolds, turbo, gear box, removed.
The engine block will be drilled on monday to fit 16V head.
(http://www.ecumaster.com/espero/EVO3/DAY1/pic5.jpg)
Now I have 3 questions:
1) I need to place IAT sensor out of the manifold plenum. Can it be located near before the throttle body ?
2) I've bought new 630ccm, hiZ, Siemens injectors. I've read that some of this fourm users use the same injectors. Do you have the proper configuration for this injectorts ?
3) How to check if flyback circuit is working ?
I made injectors work in pair and there is a big difference at idle in plus. Thank you Rob for this sugestion.
Cheers
Jadzwin
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Now I have 3 questions:
1) I need to place IAT sensor out of the manifold plenum. Can it be located near before the throttle body ?
2) I've bought new 630ccm, hiZ, Siemens injectors. I've read that some of this fourm users use the same injectors. Do you have the proper configuration for this injectorts ?
3) How to check if flyback circuit is working ?
I made injectors work in pair and there is a big difference at idle in plus. Thank you Rob for this sugestion.
Nice work!
I have 3 answers
1) There is plenty of room in the plenum to drill and tap the thread for the IAT sensor. You can put the sensor in the inlet before the throttle body if you want, it has to go after the intercooler.
2) I dont have this information but I'd follow the rule of thumb:
Inj open time 0,
Inj rampup_battfac 4080
Start of with Inj effective rampup of 1000
3) If flyback is not connected your VEMS will produce some smoke, a burning smell and then not inject fuel anymore ;)
Getting your injectors firing individually will make things even smoother :D
Rob
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Hello,
Today wasn't good day. Lots of unpredictable problems occurred :(
I was forced to disassembly the whole engine.
However several goals was achieved, and I hope tomorrow the engine will be rebuild with new 16V head :)
The main goal was to place the additional valve into the block that is required (some sources say that is not) to put 16V head on 8V block.
The second drilling was made to fit new oil drain.
Engine was also totally cleaned so it is ready to assembly.
Some pictures:
There will be bigger hole for the valve :)
(http://www.ecumaster.com/espero/EVO3/DAY2/day2_1.jpg)
The valve already in block
(http://www.ecumaster.com/espero/EVO3/DAY2/day2_2.jpg)
The hole for oil drain.
(http://www.ecumaster.com/espero/EVO3/DAY2/day2_3.jpg)
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2) I dont have this information but I'd follow the rule of thumb:
Inj open time 0,
Inj rampup_battfac 4080
Start of with Inj effective rampup of 1000
I ask that because with current injectors optimal Inj open time seems to be about 200. If I put lower value the idle seems to be worse.
So that is why I asked how to test if flyback works ok.
3) If flyback is not connected your VEMS will produce some smoke, a burning smell and then not inject fuel anymore
Are you sure ? I made several injectors / solenoids controllers and I have never used any flyback circuit and I have never destroy any FET (I use IRL540)
I've checked FQPF20N06L datasheet and this also have protection diode, and it is fully avalanche rated. I understand that it could not be enough in long term, but in short term I think that FETs are safe especialy with HI-Z injectors.
Jadzwin
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Well if the thing doesnt let smoke out you will get erratic injector behaviour. With batch injection you do get some marked issues with injector opening times that you won't see on sequential.
Rob
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Hello,
There is a delay in the project due to unpredictable problems. :(
However here is the next batch of photos of work progress:
The 16V head is on the block.
(http://www.ecumaster.com/espero/EVO3/DAY3/day3_1.jpg)
Another view
(http://www.ecumaster.com/espero/EVO3/DAY3/day3_2.jpg)
Going under the hood :)
(http://www.ecumaster.com/espero/EVO3/DAY3/day3_3.jpg)
Already there.
(http://www.ecumaster.com/espero/EVO3/DAY3/day3_4.jpg)
The next step is to connect everything, make exhoust manifold, mount turbo and install water injection kit.
The problem is that I have to go back to work :'(
I have also some problems with TPS. Orginal TPS has only two states 0V when closed and +5V when open.
Actually I'm searching for other TPS (there were also version with pot).
However have you ever made acceleration enrichement in turbo car based on pressure change ?
Cheers
Jadzwin
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I've heard that about the 0->5V TPS - definately get a Potentiometer one.
I'd not mess around with Pressure based acceleration, all the cars with turbos use TPS based.
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Basically, you are converting C20LE to C20XE with lower CR... Why didn't you use C20LET pistons in the first place, and convert C20LE directly to C20LET?
I think I would stick to the C20XE and N/A and just go to VEMS...
How is VEMS progress?
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Hello,
I've converted LE to low compression C20XE because I had spare c20xe pistons and conrods :) and my c20le engine was in perfect condition (only 90kkm).
This stage is only for testing and learning so destroying pistons is allowed :)I
I've found very nice kit of forged pistons and conrods, that are able to stand 700hp :). I have spare c20xe block in perfect condition so it will be good base for further modification.
Actually I have little time to work on my car however I will put new info and photos on Saturday.
Meantime I've bought second VEMS :) It's too good to have only one :)
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New info of work progression.
I've cleaned up the wireing in the car. I've removed all unused orginal wires, and corrected wires lenghts.
I've also mounted new oil pan. What is funny the new orginal Holden oil pan with gasket costs about 30E, but new gasket alone costs about 20E ! That is crazy :)
I've also adapted Bosh TPS with potentiometer to my throttle body. Actually it doesn't look so good, but after some work and polish it should look ok.
(http://www.ecumaster.com/espero/EVO3/WEEK3/1.jpg)
I've also have spare VEMS :)
(http://www.ecumaster.com/espero/EVO3/WEEK3/2.jpg)
My new clutch arrived. 3 weeks after deadline :( But it looks perfect, and should stand 600Nm (unfortunatelly the gear box does't).
(http://www.ecumaster.com/espero/EVO3/WEEK3/3.jpg)
Early stage of creating exhaust manifold. I hope the runners will be equal length :)
(http://www.ecumaster.com/espero/EVO3/WEEK3/4.jpg)
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Nice work! :o
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Excellent work. I'm enjoying the updates. =]
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Nice work going.! Here´s three of us now. As we (jadzwin, mr_g and i) have opel c20* based engines.
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Hi all :)
I'm still alive :)
Due to no time and some back problems I've had not enough time to make my car.
However I've made a small progress :)
Everything is already mounted, the wire loom is finished. The last missing thing is an exhaust manifold (it is almost finished).
I've made controller to my water injection system (10Amps, 10khz pwm, 3D map works very good).
I've also bought some new gadgets like new stepper motor gauges :)
After new year I take some photos of my engine bay.
Happy new year and very fast cars :) !
Jadzwin
Water injection kit working on the table :) I've flooded the room 2 times :)
Shurflo pump is quite powerfull :)
(http://www.ecumaster.com/espero/EVO3/month2/winj.jpg)
New injector set 630ccm :)
(http://www.ecumaster.com/espero/EVO3/month2/inj.jpg)
New gauges that are cheap, pretty cool, and seems to be very accurate (I've tested them on the table).
What is funny in boost gauge there is a 3 bar (absolute) map sensor. And such gauge costs about 50E :o
(http://www.ecumaster.com/espero/EVO3/month2/gauges.jpg)
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Hi,
I took some pictures of actual state of my car.
I have also one question. There is in-line small air filter in gauge kit that should protect the gauge map sensor. I'm going to use it also for my VEMS map sensor. However when I blow through it I can feel a resistance.
Can this resistance influence the map sensor measures ?
Cheers
Jadzwin
Here are some photos:
The whole view under the hood.
(http://www.ecumaster.com/espero/EVO3/month2/wholeView.jpg)
Coil pack and catch can mount.
(http://www.ecumaster.com/espero/EVO3/month2/coilPackAndCatchCan.jpg)
Methanol pump
(http://www.ecumaster.com/espero/EVO3/month2/waterPump.jpg)
Map sensors (the silver one is MPX4250, the black one is for boost gauge) and fuel pressure regulator.
(http://www.ecumaster.com/espero/EVO3/month2/mapSensorsAndFPR.jpg)
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Nice.
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I've just run my engine yesterday !!!
There was a problem with oil pump (didn't suck the oil for no visible reason :)) but after fixing the engine started after 3 crank revolution :) and worked very good and stable.
However there are two issues. The engine doesn't stop when I turn off the car using keys. Its is very strange because I use the same power lines as before.
The second problem is the vacum. There is -0.8bar of vacum and it hits MPX low range. I will check the ignition angle maybe there is too much of advance.
What do you think about this ?
There are some addtional work and "bug fixing" (like leaks in fuel rail) however the car should be finished soon. I will put here some photos when I finish the work.
I've also bought custom Wiseco pistons (comp. 8:1), forged rods, and all ARP bolts for the second engine. I have to make 11.xx sec runs in this season :)
Jadzwin
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connect vems power to ignitio ON(black wire, same is for ignitio coil).
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Hello,
I found the problem, why the car doesn't turn off. I've change alternator from Delco to Bosh.
For Delco I had 3 wires, for Bosh there are only 2 wires that should be connected. The problem was that I used wrong 2 wires :)
Now the engine stops as expected.
I fixed all fuel leaks. There are two more oil leaks to fight with :)
I also connected DP to the rest of exhoust and the engine sound is good and silent.
My doughter destroyed my camera so that is the reason for no new pictures :(
However when I will be ready to leave the garage I will make some photos.
Cheers
Jadzwin
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Have you calibrated map sensor.? My c20let idles at 40 kpa
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I use externa MPX so there is no need to calibration (??? Am I right ?)
Moreover the gauge shows the same.
After connecting exhoust to DP the pressure on idle (1000 rpm) is about 30kpa.
When I fight all oil leaks I will take care of this vaccum problem(?)
Jadzwin
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I use externa MPX so there is no need to calibration (??? Am I right ?)
Moreover the gauge shows the same.
After connecting exhoust to DP the pressure on idle (1000 rpm) is about 30kpa.
When I fight all oil leaks I will take care of this vaccum problem(?)
Jadzwin
Although you may have set the Sensor's range, you will need to fine tune the reading with the calibration offset.
I use a local weather feed to make sure that the unit reads the same kpa on my bench as the weather station.
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Hello,
My car is already finished and ready to road (to be honest I drived several kilometers :)).
There is a time for tuning.
I've installed Mega Log Viewer and I have question. How to setup lambda/ afr to see appropriate values in log ?
btw: In saturday I will post the final pictures of my engine bay.
Thanks
Jadzwin
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The car is running. I have some problems with idle selenoid but I think I
'm able to manage it.
I have some question about knoc sensor configuration.
Actually here is under the hood picture
(http://www.ecumaster.com/espero/EVO3/underTheHood.jpg)
My configuration of knock sensor looks like this:
(http://www.ecumaster.com/espero/EVO3/knock.jpg)
When I hit the engine block with hammer the knock diff is about 1.6 (or sometimes 0.64)
Here is a screenshot of the log.
(http://www.ecumaster.com/espero/EVO3/log.jpg)
It seems that there is knocking (in selection bar). (I think that I heard a little pinging)
What do you think ? Why the knock diff falls below 0.7 ?
The boost rises slow because there is air leak in the inlet and it must be fixed before further tuning.
Jadzwin
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Windows start is wrong(very wrong). It must be 12 or 8.
Gain is wrong(2 is optimal for opel sensor).
Did you calibrate integretor time constant(http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=MembersPage%2FPhatBob%2FUserGuide Knock Sampling Settings) ?
Look at this page
http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=MembersPage%2FGintsK%2FKnockControl
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Hello,
I'm still figthing wwith knock sensor.. However today I get new toys and I'm very excited and I have to show you :)
(http://www.ecumaster.com/espero/EVO3/kucizna.jpg)
I start to build the second engine.
Jadzwin
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look at this page
http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=MembersPage%2FGintsK%2FKnockControl
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I have looked at this page. The problem is that after configuring everything correct (??) it still work strange. During the idle there are spikes (up and down).
However tommorow I hope I make new tests.
Here is a log of hammering engine block during the idle and last configuration:
(http://www.ecumaster.com/espero/EVO3/knock1/config.jpg)
(http://www.ecumaster.com/espero/EVO3/knock1/log.jpg)
I have found such document about knock sensing in c20let. What is strange there is 15khz as knock frequency.
(http://www.inochi.pl/foty/knock1.jpg)
(http://www.inochi.pl/foty/knock2.jpg)
(http://www.inochi.pl/foty/knock3.jpg)
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Hello,
I had a small accident during vems tuning sesion :( (exactly just before I start to tune).
Here are results:
(http://www.ecumaster.com/espero/EVO3/espero_broken.jpg)
The right susspension is completly destroyed. Even the custom brake disc is broken :(
Jadzwin
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Hello,
My Espero is dead :( The car lost geometry so I decide to buy new "hausing" for my engine :)
Here is the picture :)
(http://www.ecumaster.com/espero/EVO3/Lanos/lani.jpg)
This car is terrible :) :) Suspension is dramatic (front stabilizer is 17mm, no rear stabilizer) and brakes are very poor,. But it is only 1040kg so it is lighter than espero about 100kg, there is no rust and was cheap :).
The plan is simple.
First I will mount new Bilstein B6 shock absorers, polybushes, front 23mm Eibach stabilizer, new rear suspension with stabilizer and brake discs, new front 286 disc, alloy wheels with Toyo tires and I hope that the car start to behave ok.
The next step will be swap my turbo engine and gear box to Lanos, and make new wiring loom for vems.
Now I know how exactly it should be done, and I hope that my second wireing loom will be good.
In Espero I controll injectors in pairs. This time I will connect them separately.
I liked my previous project because it was very uncommon project :( I'm very angry that I destoryed the car in so stupid way and I even didn't push the engine "to the limit" (max 0.6 bar for tests :( )
Everything was fixed and prepared for serious tuning...
Cheers
Jadzwin
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Thats a shame about your first car, but with this new car it you will suprise people when they can't understand why its so quick, try and keep it looking standard ;)
Rob
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:)
This car will be totally standard ;D
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How did you crash espero?
Lanos have the same under the bonnet, and gearbox must be the same... You can mount wheels, brakes, everything from espero... I suppose that the suspesion is the same...
Lanos is a great car.. I have much fun with it, and it coupes with 0.8bar from C20LET engine... All you have to do is front lower strut to make it go straight on the straight line...
That injectors 630cc, are those Siemens from VEMS shop? Will they fit C20LET?
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Yes. The suspension is almost the same. Actuality I put new suspension into Lanos (all elements what can be replaced are brand new), polybushes, 288mm disk brakes, rear suspension from Astra GSI with disk brakes, Bilstein B6, and lower and upper strut into front suspension. I can't put B8 and lower progressive springs due to my back problems :(
The car behave quite good, but I have 1.6L engine and no power :)
Actually I build engine with Wiseco pistons, and I hope it will be ready soon.
The main advantage of Lanos is its weight.
630 injectors are the same as on VEMS page. I bought them in Poland for a little bit lower price, and injectors was matched for equal flow. It will fit C20let with no problem.
I crashed my car during cornering. I use external electronic boost controller and I have remaped boost maps. During cornering I fully opened the throttle, the car boost too much, I lost traction and hit the kerb. I have about 90km/h and I'm very happy that I only destroyed the car.
What is funny I went to Vems session to tune car with higher boost :) :) :)
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In my country, another guy crashed his honda while fine tuning MS...
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Small update:
The project is still going :) Unfortunately very slow due to limited free time :(
I've rebuild the whole engine with low compression pistons, steel con rods, all ARP bolts, new oil pump, etc.
Cleaning
(http://www.ecumaster.com/espero/EVO3/Lanos/engine_cleaning.jpg)
Internals:
(http://www.ecumaster.com/espero/EVO3/Lanos/internals.jpg)
Engine assembled:
(http://www.ecumaster.com/espero/EVO3/Lanos/engine.jpg)
I've also decided to use Lanos original harness. It is in perfect condition, I have lots of spare connectors (like 4 pins stepper motor, variable intake valve, fuel evap, etc,) I use additional harness for WBO (you can see on the picture wires of this harness). On the picture you can see the "reduction" between Vems and original Lanos harness.
Moreover I make the Lanos original 1.6L engine working :) So I hope that new engine will start with no problem.
(http://www.ecumaster.com/espero/EVO3/Lanos/vems_connected.jpg)
Here is a picture of empty engine bay:
(http://www.ecumaster.com/espero/EVO3/Lanos/engine_bay.jpg)
And the full one :)
(http://www.ecumaster.com/espero/EVO3/Lanos/engine_in.jpg)
To be continued....
HAPPY NEW YEAR !!!!
Jadzwin