VEMS Community Forum
Technical => Ignition => Topic started by: BenFenner on September 29, 2007, 09:30:53 am
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Okay, I've spent most of the day getting VEMS and sensors configured. I'm really on the final stretch. All of my sensors are working and calibrated. I am at the ignition timing step. When I crank the car to begin timing, the rpms display 180-210 and very occasionally I'll get the timing light to strobe, but not very often, and not very consistently. I've triple checked my wiring and everything seems to be in order. Any thoughts?
This is a single coil, wasted spark with distributor set-up.
My current ignition settings are:
Ignition outputs in use in h[2] 00 only
Ignition driver type DUMMY
Invert driver output Disabled
Dual Output Mode Disabled
Coil chargetime @14V (ms) 1.98
Coil chargetime added @6V (ms) 1.51
Changing the dwell times blindly doesn't seem to help much.
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Start with a charge time of about 4mS @ 14v for the single coil.
Have you set up the ignition outputs to only fire the coil channel?
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Yes, I have things set up to only fire the single coil. I'm not sure of the settings right now as I'm not working on the car, but I do believe I have that set-up correctly. I'm gunna take a shower and head out for another day of tinkering. Wish me luck.
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I couldn't figure anything out, so I took the old coil from my old setup and plugged VEMS into it. I then ran a single spark plug wire from the coil to cylinder 1. This produces consistent spark, but it seems VERY slow at 1 spark per second at about 180 rpms. Shouldn't it be more like 12 sparks per second? 4 sparks per revolution with 3 revolutions per second.
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I'm still sitting here with about 1/12 the sparks I should be seeing. I notice that when I disable the secondary trigger, I don't get an rpm signal anymore. This seems odd. I've tried switching the primary and secondary trigger wires with both enabled and that prevents rpm reading as well. Still stumped.
I'm just gunna wait until I get some more advice. I'm all out of ideas.
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First lets check the Settings->Ignition Settings screen.
Ignition outputs in use h[2] should be set to 00 only
Ignition driver type is DUMMY
Now in Settings->Ignition Outputs you need to set 0 to the Pin that you've connected the coil to.
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Yep, those setting are correct. EC36-pin35 is the one I'm using, and all of the rest of the settings match. Next?
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3 revs per second two firing cycles a revolution.
Also at a low speed you might be on the verge of a synchronisation issue, can you pull the spark plugs and retry?
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3 revolutions per second, sure. But shouldn't I be seeing 4 spark events per revolution? One corresponding to each cylinder? Remember, I have the coil connected directly to spark plug wire 1, taking the cap/rotor out of the equation. My timing light will show me every spark event.
Pull the plugs? You want me to put the cap/rotor into the mix, pull my plugs, crank the engine and watch the plugs for firing?
If that's what you mean, I'll go do that and note the firing frequency and order.
I'd like to get this figured out within the next 9 hours or so, so if you could check back here frequently until you pack it in for the night, I'd greatly appreciate it. =]
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Its a four stroke so that means two revs per cylinder for each firing event.
Pulling the plugs and addition of a seperate battery (if possible) will get that cranking speed up, ground the plug that you have the HT lead connected to, and you should see the RPM speed well past 300rpm, with a good spark. Concentrate on getting the timing set to the cranking advance specified in Priming Cranking and afterstart, as long as the timing mark stays constant (on every other ignition flash) then you can consider the trigger to be okay.
Once you've adjusted the TDC after trigger value to get the cranking advance correct for the set value, you can then introduce the distributor into the mix.
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It's a coil and distributor set-up, wasted spark right? So one revolution per cylinder for each firing event?
I see, you wanted me to pull the plugs so the engine can crank faster and easier. Done.
I've taken videos of the spark plugs while cranking. When I crank the car using the cap/rotor set-up I get very inconsistent spark (plug 2 only I think) and very slow. Once every 4 seconds or so.
When I crank the engine with plug 1 hooked directly to the coil, I get consistent spark on plug 1, but it is still pretty slow at 1 spark every 2 seconds.
You're saying I'll be able to set the timing with plug 1 connected directly to the coil? Even if it's flashing so slow? I'll go give it a shot, but I'm not hopeful.
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Its not wasted spark, and will fire once per trigger event (every 6 teeth with disk running at 1/2 engine speed)
With the distributor cap we may be having issues with where the rotor is when the ECU decides to fire, so you may need to mess with the trigger tooth and swing the distributor around to get the timing closer...
If you can do me an MSQ file (File->Save As...) I'll see if there is anything that seems to be out of place, there shouldnt be though...
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Not wasted spark? I've been assuming that this whole time. Damnit.
I'm uploading a video of the timing light pointed at my crank pulley. I'll have that link soon.
How should I send my MSQ file? E-mail?
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With the cam mounted 24+1 trigger we're sequential ;D
Email is fine.
We're trying to shift this forum to another server because this one has become too slow, so if you have problems uploading or contacting the server then you might have to wait until tomorrow.
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I've been trying to get the timing to 0 degrees using the single coil connected to plug 1. I couldn't see any timing marks on my crank pulley even while turning the distributor. I flipped the CAS disc, and now with my distributor at full advanced, and Crank Advance (deg) set to 63.75 (full advance) I can finally see the timing marks on the pulley. They are close, but off by a bit. Nothing I've done can get them any closer. I need to advance timing more I think, but don't know how.
As a side note, I see the markings every timing light flash, not every other as you said would happen.
Any new ideas?
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How about this... I could drill out the hole in the center of the CAS disc so I can spin the disc instead of the distributor to get more advance in the timing. I feel like I shouldn't have to do this though.
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It's almost 11:00 pm. here, so I went out to check spark in the dark since it'll be a lot easier to see.
When I put the distributor back into the mix, I ended up getting plug 4 to fire, and only plug 4. It seemed to be firing at the same speed that plug 1 was firing when I had it hooked directly to the coil. I just wanted you to know as much as possible. I'm really still feeling like I'm getting at least 1/4th the spark per unit of time that I should be.
Here's that video of the speed of firing during cranking I promised earlier:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7iD3EekOxQ
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It seems that the engine is firing every other trigger... Which is strange but not out of the bounds of possabilities.
Set your cranking timing back to 10deg BTDC.
Go to Settings->Primary Trigger Settings
Set your Trigger Tooth to 0, and crank the engine. Increasing the trigger tooth will bring the trigger point back to the tooth straight after the sync trigger. When you get to the trigger tooth that gives you the closest timing to 10deg use the TDC after the trigger value to trim the base timing.
Just for a quick experiment, in your Ignition settings try setting Ignition outputs us use in h[2] to 01..00 and then in Ignition outputs set 1 to 0 (EC36 Pin 35)
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I thought I was aiming for 0 degrees BTDC. I'll give your 10 degrees a try though. Thanks for the ideas, I'll give them a try in a couple hours after work.
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Changing the Trigger Tooth to 1 ended up placing the timing marks right where I wanted them.
I was then able to time the engine with great difficulty, as the timing would change a lot after restarting VEMS, and took many tries before it stayed consistent. Now that I re-read your advice, I realize I've done that part backwards maybe. Anyway, I got a decent, reproducible 7 degrees BTDC dialed in (best I could get with my bass-ackwards method).
I then tried what you said about doubling the ignition output. That gave me two quick sparks, a pause, then two quick sparks. It seemed to be working, so I put the distributor back in the mix. I would get sparks for plugs 2 and 4 only. I then upped the ignition outputs to 4, which gave sparks on all 4 plugs in the correct firing order.
I put the plugs back in the car, set the fuel injectors settings, put the fuel pump fuse in, pulled the WB02 out of the exhaust and gave her a crank.
Success!
She started, and idled. I've spent about 2 hours fiddling around with things trying to get stuff to work, like the radiator fans, and the idle control valve.
Mainly I'm having issues with the idle control valve, but I'll take that topic back to my project page.
Either way, the car runs, and responds to what little tuning I've tried. This is a huge step, and I'm pretty happy I've managed to get this far. Apparently VEMS and I don't mix when it comes to ignition. Rob, do you have any idea why I have to have it set up the way I do? There's got to be something wrong, right?
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I think its going to be the subtle mix of the distributor position effecting the position of the cap in relation to the distributor arm and the fact that it moves the sensor in relation to the distributor at the same time...
Idle control is a huge pain, start with it in the On/Off setting so that the thing stays on until say 65degC and the switch it off.