VEMS Community Forum
Members => Projects & Installs => Topic started by: DevInAz on August 02, 2011, 10:04:07 pm
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This post is to start my new project log. I just bought this 1985 745 that is pretty bad shape cosmetically but all the drivetrain is in decent shape.
Specs:
Factory Engine and automatic transmissio
Vems 3.3 (had a extra from a old project)
Boost controller
stock ignition for now
stock 30lbs injectors as long as they clean up and flow test well. I also installed a 3bar pressure regulator instead of the stock 2.5 because it failed and the 3bar I had as an extra on the shelf. <------ EDIT
Goals:
to have a clean daily driver
500hp/tq
manual swap
full leather interior
I'll start my research tonight for trigger wheels.
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I reccomend M30B25 60-2 trigger wheel fitted on the front. quickest and easiest
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.. and 60-2 allows you to use a wasted spark coilpack (or fire separate coils in pairs) instead of the distributor ignition.
VEMS can control boost, no need to complicate the situation with a separate boost controller. You can use anytrim function to get a manual override.
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Here are some pictures of the car before work begins.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/Snapbucket/32AAAC3D-orig.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/Snapbucket/3A7F5ED0-orig.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/Snapbucket/D7774ABC-orig.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/Snapbucket/B95DC654-orig.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/Snapbucket/9DF31335-orig.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/Snapbucket/582CAEBD-orig.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/Snapbucket/914D8C9C-orig.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/Snapbucket/1867A167-orig.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/Snapbucket/703AE1ED-orig.jpg)
The top e23 is a 85 735 that i'm using as a interior donor. All the wood trim and a bunch of other pieces are in great shape. This car will be stripped and sent to the crusher in about a week.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/Snapbucket/F9838BF7-orig.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/Snapbucket/59BA7B7C-orig.jpg)
The floors are really dirty in that picture but thats the shop
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VEMS can control boost, no need to complicate the situation with a separate boost controller. You can use anytrim function to get a manual override.
Sorry thats what I mean but i'll install a boost solenoid and hopefully I can get it to work better than the solenoid on our e30 that I still can't seem to get right. On this e23 i'm going to use the headlight leveling switch position in the dash for the anytrim function.
I'm pulling the motor and trans out of the donor car today, I'll mock up a 60-2 wheel I have from a e30. I don't know if those fit or not but I have a few extras laying around and I could make one work i'm sure.
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how have you plumbed the e30 solenoid? which one is it?
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Here is a picture of the solenoid i'm running. I thought I had a picture of it installed but I guess not. I'll take a picture tonight and post it up on the other thread. The e30 has been sitting because I can't make the boost solenoid work with the vems and it hits my fuel cut at 3000rpm every time.
http://www.vemssupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,1473.60.html
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Injector information. I'll be sending these out to get a good cleaning and flow sheet done on them soon.
Part Number lbs/hr cc /min grams /min PSI BARS lbs/hr cc /min 80% 95% Feed Impedance Application n-H
0-280-150-200 28-Jun 300.6 216.2 43.5 3.0 28-Jun 300.6 44 52.3 Top Low BMW, Peugeot -
I'm looking for a factory 60-2 wheel along with sensor and the mount. I'll head to the junkyard next week to see what I can find.
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Trigger wheel pictures. I got this 60-2 from a 535 at the junkyard for $25 with the sensor bracket and sensor. I installed these on the car yesterday along with new belts.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/photo4.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/photo3.jpg)
Notice the pulley size difference. I reused my old pulley which was the smaller one.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/photo.jpg)
With the old wheel it had one trigger pin and I was wondering what it and the sensor does considering it doesn't run the the ecu. I found where it goes and i'll be cutting it out of the diag port soon.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/photo2.jpg)
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Does anyone have a config for a m30 I could start with? or a stock timing map?
I've started my engine wiring harness and its half way done. I've included a Idle control valve from a m30 instead of the manual idle valve. I'm going to run the stock ignition for a little while and figure out what coils I want to use. I was thinking a coil pack from a GM since they are very available. I'll post pictures of my wiring harness tonight.
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Here are the current pictures of most wires being ran. Since I haven't installed anything in the car yet I don't know where I'm going to mount my VEMS so I don't know the exact length. Later tonight I might pull the factory harness out and start running all these wires into the cab so I have a exact length and mounting location. I hope to have all this installed and running by friday this week.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/Snapbucket/E9AB46DB-orig.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/Snapbucket/E17E23D5-orig.jpg)
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The car is now running but doesn't drive yet. Here are some pictures. I used the factory m106 tps bracket but modified it then installed a e36 tps and that part works great.
This is how the car was before anything was done.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/Snapbucket/B37A06A2-orig.jpg)
The factory harness before being cut open.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/Snapbucket/EF30D998-orig.jpg)
Harness removed with factory injectors before I got them cleaned and flow tested.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/Snapbucket/D271F551-orig.jpg)
new TPS bracket and installation.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/Snapbucket/4B8E48A0-orig.jpg)
The Idle valve I wanted to use before I found out that it gets in the way of the factory charge pipe. I'll figure out another way of doing this. For right now I've enabled ignition advance idle control and that seems to do ok at least for a little while.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/Snapbucket/92E74C44-orig.jpg)
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The car is now running with a good idle and can rev slowly to 3500rpm. I'm using stock 13lbs injectors that are high imp from a 86 735. these will be to small for my motor once boost starts rolling in so i'll use the cleaned factory injectors that I just got back from being rebuilt and flow checked. See the picture with chart below for the injector specs. My question is since these are low imp injectors do I need to use this power resistor http://shop.vems.hu/catalog/power-resistor-p-120.html and switch to PWM my injectors? Or do I put resistors in the harness and not change my PWM settings from 100% and 25.5ms?
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/Snapbucket/5896FA05-orig.jpg)
I pulled out the exhaust today to weld on a o2 bung. Here are some pictures... This thing is muffler is crazy heavy so i'll change the exhaust out later I think.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/Snapbucket/C516C73E-orig.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/Snapbucket/BCCB055F-orig.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/Snapbucket/971BF63D-orig.jpg)
here is the late model timing wheel I used.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/Snapbucket/B680A9A7-orig.jpg)
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Here is my config.
http://www.box.net/shared/fb3e8ovxduri14fpaohz
Here are some logs starting with a trigger log.
http://www.box.net/shared/zyu6p9yb9sao7dh20kr5
runnings logs.
http://www.box.net/shared/u2poa259fqp6yfxxckpj
http://www.box.net/shared/e1d57g03cruladi2demg
http://www.box.net/shared/1caa68ifp50j6rq0tiox
The car seems like its misfiring but all plugs are firing and all injectors are firing. I'm thinking my number 6 injector is leaking badly but I don't know yet and I don't really care since I need my other injectors to get installed.
On another note the vehicle runs pretty good while idling and not in gear but when I put the car in gear the rpm drops 450rpm and has a really poor acceleration. I think i'm going to install a m54 idle control valve since it isn't idling like I thought it would with the ignition advance. This car has its EGS (trans computer) and DME in the same housing which i've never seen before on a BMW. I need to figure out how to get the egs working so it shifts gears without the dme being part of the system. ??? Does anyone have a wiring diagram for this 85 745??? I can only find US car diagrams and they are totally different.
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Transmission is fixed. Some of the power and ground wires I cut while building the new harness. The original DME is now behind the speaker again but unhooked and only the transmission side is plugged in. I just went for my first cruise in the car with vems and it was pretty smooth. It still has the worlds worst tune in it but it does drive so we are getting somewhere.
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Sounds like it´s moving along nicely.
Abpout the injectors why not get high impedence injectors now and not have to mess with anything .
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Gunni - Normally I would just get other injectors but I just spent $100 getting these injectors cleaned before I realized i had to make modifications for them to work. I would also need to spend at least $300 for a decent set of big injectors for this car. I was thinking if all I needed was some power resistors for a total of $30 I could use my old but clean stock low imp injectors.
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(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/timing.png)
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You can add a lot of timing to that map, especially on load. Could be it's getting knock sensitive if you add like 10 degrees up top - I wouldn't know as I haven't tried tuning this restricted engine with stock manifold and turbo. Like the stock injectors - those are usually replaced with better stuff.
Simple manifold adapters to stock N/A cast headers and a Holset HX40 will probably yield more torque at every rpm on the same boost, and spool as quick or faster. With your goal of 500 hp/tq that is where you're headed anyway.
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You can add a lot of timing to that map, especially on load. Could be it's getting knock sensitive if you add like 10 degrees up top
Do you think adding in 3-4 degrees is a lot? I'll add some in and post up the map so you can tell me if its still to conservative. Thanks Mattias
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(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/timing2.png)
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It's a starting point, sort out the fuel (VE table hits lambda target) with that ignition map.
You'll notice where the torque peak is from the VE map, you can be more careful at that point. Where VE drops at higher rpm you can usually add in many degrees more.
Run at least 30 degrees timing at 20-60 kPa from 2000-3500 rpm. This is where the fuel economy comes in.
Rarely visited load cells, but above 3500 rpm and below 80 kPa, at no point should you be lower than 30 degrees. 35-40 degrees at 20-40 kPa is more likely.
When you aim for 500 hp/tq without the horrible 745 turbo gear, here's what you should aim at and it may still be a few degrees conservative (this map is for an M20 turbo engine on pump gasoline). The larger bore on the M30 means you can also use a bit more timing on cruise load.
(http://www.savarturbo.se/~mattias/motor/vems_data/danp/spark_v1.jpg)
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Here are my factory injectors that are 30lbs. They are 2.9ohms low impedance injectors. I was talking to the guy that cleaned these injectors for me and he is under the impression I just need 10ohm 10watt resistors in each signal wire running to each injector. BUT on the webshop they sell power resistors that are 50w. I'd rather not harm this board that is running great. Does anyone have any suggestions?
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/Snapbucket/6C498488-orig.jpg)
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I used some 50w 6ohm resistors on 2.5ohm injectors once and it worked like a charm. Ran them like saturated injectors.
It´s better to have higher wattage resistors then not.
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Awesome thanks Gunni! I'll go pick some up and wire them in tonight.
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Here is what maxed out injectors look like ;D 13lbs injectors with 6psi on a bmw m106.
http://www.box.net/shared/uoph9lbszo9nya42sa8z
i really need to get my real injectors installed in this thing.
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I wired up my resistors. I used 50watt 10ohm resistors with a 1 percent tolerance level. I've been tuning and driving on the for a week or so now. I used connectors inline from the vems to the resistors out to the injectors. If I ever need bigger injectors it will be an easy plug and play setup to remove the resistors from ever being there. pictures will be up soon.
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http://www.box.com/s/2ok7sh792k74yxo6nsaj < --- Config
http://www.box.com/s/91dboiurhgsp6jr2vecb < --- Log file
I've wired up and turned on the my idle control valve.
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Latest log: http://www.box.com/files#/files/0/f/244953348/1/f_1903548606/0/comment
Can someone tell me if my accel enrichments look ok in this log?
Here is my latest config:
http://www.box.com/files#/files/0/f/244953348/1/f_1903547556/0/comment
here is a picture of my spark plugs after a few thousand miles of daily driving on them. They look like they are running a little lean to me but my fuel mileage is really bad. I have a 20 gallon tank and i'm getting about 240 miles out of each tank. Thats only about 12 miles per gallon which is awful! Most of these cars get about 25mpg. I should do a compression and leak down test on this motor to see what that is sitting at. The BMW m106 is a 8:1
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m548/southwestbimmers/Snapbucket/3E834A3F.jpg)
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Without looking at the logs I´ll ask at what lambda do you target your cruise?
I´ve seen on M30´s they can run 1.05 rather easily without any side effects for cruise.
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Your box.com links go to a "login required" page, either fix that or better yet use the built-in reporting tool in VemsTune (see Help menu) which is made for this particular purpose, even with possibility for others to add files and comments. Too bad other ways can't be forbidden..
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Thanks Guys I uploaded a log and config through the sharing center, Here is the link.
http://vems.hu/vemstune/sharingcenter/reports.php?cmd=view&key=k1t4Ag
Gunni - my target map is the same that comes with VEMS.
http://www.box.com/s/9d2f58805546f979901b - log
http://www.box.com/s/238460568ecdc0095fd2 - config
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You have some details what could lead to bad mileage.
1) lumpy lambda signal and uneven cylinder power. It can be because uneven air distribution, uneven fuel distribution.... Check your injectors, air leaks...
2) You have crazy warmup curve.
3)For me VE map do not look like from tuned engine. Lambda do not match target in your log file. You can use more axis where engine spend most of time.
4) For this old skool engine ignition advance at cruising and off-boost areas are retarded.
5) also you do not want to trigger any acceleration enrichment at slow throttle movements. It just eats money.
Crank VE=20 ?!
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hey GintsK,
1) The Fuel injectors where rebuilt and flowed a few months ago and I have a brand new fuel pump that is delivering stable fuel pressure. I haven't done a compression and leakdown on the engine yet.
2) I'm not sure what else it should look like... I added fuel to the warmup in each section over the winter until it started quickly each morning. The warmer out it got I started tuning the higher temp points. Now thats its about 60F every morning it doesn't use much warmup anymore.
3) For the fuel map I drove at stable speeds and set everything to the target lambda then once everything seemed close I used the tune by statistics until it didn't change anything.
4) For the Ignition table I used a map Mattias told me to use. He told me I could probably get more timing but since i'm not really a tuner I don't know how to tell how far is too far for cruise timing so I left everything alone. Mattias said his map was for a m20 which is about 1 liter smaller than this engine so I know it's retarted a bit but i'd rather not kill my daily driver because of my lack of tuning ability.
5) I'll tune the accel out a lot more.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge!
Where do I find the Crank VE? what would you expect this to be closer too?
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Here are my updates with a new config:
http://vems.hu/vemstune/sharingcenter/reports.php?cmd=view&key=k1t4Ag#comments
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You have new config there. Try it out. No dangerous changes.
I change many things including spark and lambda tables. Spark at boosted regions is retarded anyway. But this is not for distance changing.
IIRC my advance values was like 22deg at 1.5bar@3800 with RON98. And of course more advanced at lower boost.
Gints
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The new config from GintsK has been loaded. I put about 20 miles or so on this tune at freeway speeds while running a log and then ran tune by statistics. It pulled fuel out on the top end and added in a decent amount at cruising speeds below 60kpa.
Here in Nevada our highest fuel at the pump is 91AKI which I think is somewhere are 94-95RON. Since I don't have any knock detection or anything how can I tell when too much ignition is being used? Should I do a drive and pull some plugs? I can't find any reading material about tuning techniques for this. People only seems to talk about tuning when making power.
I had to change the Crank VE down to 45 or it takes a ton of cranking before the engine starts.
Tomorrow i'm going to be installing my 6 COP from a e65 745. No cam sensor will be run for a while so waste spark will be the method of choice.
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I would search for some additional misconfigurations or failures. I touched just lambda map a little bit at 1200rpm cruising region. So your fueling should stayed as before.
also crank VE=45 tells somewhat is wrong. E.g. injector dead time settings way off. Or leaky injectors or... This value usually is close to table value at low rpm 100kpa VE.
Regarding knock: google for detcans. You even can find useful info in this forum.
Gints
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After looking at the target VE table changes thats why the regular VE table was changed.
My crank VE was changed again down to 20 because my car wasn't starting without giving the engine more air with the gas pedal. it now starts well again. I can't explain why it does this but for some reason at Crank VE 20 it starts correctly.
I wiring in my COP today and the car is running well. It is using waste spark.
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A few years ago I was playing with these ancient injectors and they seemed to be very hard to tune with VEMS (although it was the low voltage pwm flyback strategy those days).
Then we were going for modern injectors double this size, and everything got much better suddenly: idle quality, throttle response, economy.
If my memory don't fail, these engines were running very lean in stock form, I mean 1.03-1.05 lambda from idle to cruise, and even on low rpm/boost, and hardly getting into the 0.8x range at high rpms (and 0.6-0.7 bar of boost), but relying on knock sensors.
Looking at your lambda values in the log file it seems very sluggish to me, the "resolution" in time seems very poor, I used to see much smoother graphs almost like your MAP or RPM signal looks like, without the lean glitches you have very often.
It should be very hard to tune VE based on such a feedback, and I'd forget automated tune based on such logs, but correct this problem first.
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at your lambda values in the log file it seems very sluggish to me, the "resolution" in time seems very poor, I used to see much smoother graphs almost like your MAP or RPM signal looks like, without the lean glitches you have very often.
It should be very hard to tune VE based on such a feedback, and I'd forget automated tune based on such logs, but correct this problem first.
Looking at your lambda values in the log file it seems very sluggish to me, the "resolution" in time seems very poor, I used to see much smoother graphs almost like your MAP or RPM signal looks like, without the lean glitches you have very often.
It should be very hard to tune VE based on such a feedback, and I'd forget automated tune based on such logs, but correct this problem first.
Nice hint. Indeed no performing control loop or tuning from noisy data.
I was looking for logs which would show the expected standard for noise level when running Vems (e.g. lambda lean glitches )
Do you get some Lezsi?
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at your lambda values in the log file it seems very sluggish to me, the "resolution" in time seems very poor, I used to see much smoother graphs almost like your MAP or RPM signal looks like, without the lean glitches you have very often.
It should be very hard to tune VE based on such a feedback, and I'd forget automated tune based on such logs, but correct this problem first.
Looking at your lambda values in the log file it seems very sluggish to me, the "resolution" in time seems very poor, I used to see much smoother graphs almost like your MAP or RPM signal looks like, without the lean glitches you have very often.
It should be very hard to tune VE based on such a feedback, and I'd forget automated tune based on such logs, but correct this problem first.
Nice hint. Indeed no performing control loop or tuning from noisy data.
I was looking for logs which would show the expected standard for noise level when running Vems (e.g. lambda lean glitches )
Do you get some Lezsi?
OK, check this log:
http://quasar.dynaweb.hu/~lezsi/vems/v3.3_n002211-2010.07.31-15.59.42.vemslog (http://quasar.dynaweb.hu/~lezsi/vems/v3.3_n002211-2010.07.31-15.59.42.vemslog)
This is not a fine-tune or something, just a piece of log from the past which I could came up with in a minute :)
The point here is lambda reaction, which is very smooth in my opinion. It also tends to be a bit lean/rich when hitting the throttle but it's just playing around with accel. enrichment.
Still, the only point in log where the lambda goes really high (> 1.2) when it shows a deceleration phase, right after injection cut-off. These parts shows the lambda latency of the system at those revs/load.