Hello all,
I am fairly new to VEMS tuning. I use fw 1.1.64 and VEMS tune.
The car is Peugeot 306 with GTI6 engine and a turbo (GT28RS).
I've managed to tune it ok for cruise, but at full throttle @ the dyno I am seeing strange things like power drops and torque changes. I used mild advance on full throttle since i didnt have a dyno to tune with at start.
Attached are Dyno results and a log file (was not taken on the dyno but on the road).
I've been told that my MAT/TPS calibration is wrong and that i have too much Accel Enrich.
I would appreciate any help with the tuning.
Log:
https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B6l1SB-S-teyY2RiMzU4N2UtYjIwNi00N2NjLTkwNTUtZDQ4ZDI0NmQxOWIz&hl=en_US (https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B6l1SB-S-teyY2RiMzU4N2UtYjIwNi00N2NjLTkwNTUtZDQ4ZDI0NmQxOWIz&hl=en_US)
Dyno: (280HP@6100 RPM, 33 kgm and 9 psi of boost)
(http://i39.tinypic.com/bhjfh0.png)
Ouch!
Seems you are in trouble.
First. IIRC no firmware in 1.1.6x range was not good. I do not remeberer what problem (bug) it was, but simply better not use it!
Second. You are in trouble from very base of tune. Push "validate" button in Vemstune. Trigger settings are wrong. Means ignition calculations are off. WBO2 calibration are wrong.
Tables are scaled just up to 120Kpa? You blow more than 0.2bar for sure!
Injectors fires all in parallel once per cycle? Why? Worst scenario!
IMHO you have to start again from beginnings- this tune worth nothing in my eyes.
Put somewhat like 1.1.95, rewire injectors, correct wrong settings, calibrate sensors. Rescale tables for your planed boost range, put default MAT correction...
Migration to newer firmware is very easy with Vemstune - just follow instructions. With newest firmwares you will get better support. Simply very few people ran 1.1.6x. Most of us jumps from 1.1.53/54 to 1.1.70 or later f/w.
Good luck!
Gints
Thanks for the reply.
I am new to VEMS, but not that new...
You really think the car could output 280hp with the problems you describe without blowing up? :o
The firmware was provided by DP_Engineering - who also assembled my PnP VEMS unit and gave a base map.
Obviously you see something else from what i see in the same log file. Maybe compatibility issues?
Here is the VE table. This is how i see it in my vemstune.
Maybe there is something i need to do before exporting the log file?
(http://i43.tinypic.com/2zth5ye.png)
For some reason for me tables looks so:
http://www.4shared.com/photo/YMVwLFRQ/VE_online.html
Had you something logged it that file? I see just 13 seconds stalling engine.
Yes, it looks different from mine.
I used http://www.dp-engineering.nl/random/VEMS_PnP/VT110120.exe (http://www.dp-engineering.nl/random/VEMS_PnP/VT110120.exe)
This is the version given to me by dp.
Maybe this is why it looks different.
The log contains a run with 2nd gear to 6800rpm. This is the limit of my current 440cc injectors (97% DC). obviously i don't run that kind of RPM normally.
Then try to share separately your config. And convert log file to csv (under tools) and share it.
Or install last official VT. It shouldn't hurt as long as you have .ini for your firmware. Developers made really huge work to improve VT during this year.
BTW your VE table screenshot looks more like fuel pump flow insufficiency than injectors. 440 should give more than 300hp at 100% DC. You have 280.. on crank?
Config file:
https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B6l1SB-S-teyMGI2ODk0YzEtN2FiZS00OWI4LWFiM2YtNmM2YWRiYmNlZTBl&hl=en_US (https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B6l1SB-S-teyMGI2ODk0YzEtN2FiZS00OWI4LWFiM2YtNmM2YWRiYmNlZTBl&hl=en_US)
Log:
https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B6l1SB-S-teyYzM0YmRlZGMtMDAxMC00ZjdjLThmYTYtYjY2YTNiYmUyNTRh&hl=en_US (https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B6l1SB-S-teyYzM0YmRlZGMtMDAxMC00ZjdjLThmYTYtYjY2YTNiYmUyNTRh&hl=en_US)
280 from the crank, I think. It was tested with dyna pack dyno and corrected to crank (unless i am missing something)
How do you analyse that is a fuel pump issue according to the VE? This is very interesting. I was wondering why i get high duty cycle with this power level.
Regarding table. From experience lower lines in true VE table always are more/less parallel with high KPa lines. If top right corner of map goes up it means compensation of fuel pressure drop.
Also there is no reason for volumetric efficiency go sky high from 4000 to 7000rpm.
Now config looks hardly different to me.
Anyway validation check gives two significant errors. WBO2 value are off. So it can be that sensor readings are not reliable. Look at data supplied with unit.
And you have partial fuel cut enabled: simply change cut or resume rpms so that difference is not 1000 or 1100.
Did you use boost control? Values there looks weird. Nowadays Boost PID control works perfectly. No reason to use alternate control strategy as main.
I would still recomend configure Lambda table different - within operating range.
Also your MAT/TPS correction table is dangerous. Look how looks default one.
Injector wiring/firing are crazy! Why you do so?
Acceleration... hard to say how VEMS calculate it when injection divider 4 is used. Seems it multiply by 4. But as you see no hard reaction visible on Lambda signal. You heve too much AE at slow tps movements. And Rpm curve should be configured opposite: more PW at low rpms and low or even no AE at high rpms.
Does "dyno" and logfile comes from same run? You had tyre or clutch slip during WOT. It disturbs road-dyno measurements for sure.
Gints
Many thanks for your help, it is much appreciated! I don't have anyone here even remotely familiar with VEMS.
I changed the fuel cut to 2900rpm and resume to 1700 to avoid partial fuel cut.
I have another WB sensor connected to gauge (AEM) and i use it to compare values. I did the WBO2 calibration (with sensor held out in the open air). When the AEM gauge shows 14.5:1, the VEMS gauge (i think its s VW sensor) shows 1 lambda. So i guess i run a little bit richer than expected, but on the other hand, maybe the AEM is off scale. Who knows?
I would very much like to see default tables. Can you direct me the relevant locations?
I did not touch injector wiring/firing - it was provided by DP.
I've changed AE (rpm) to:
800 30
1500 25
3000 15
6000 5
The car feels crispier upon accel, but i get a short spike of lean mixture when pushing the throttle. Is this natural or should i increase dotrate vs. scale?
I did not use any boost controller. I plan to use one in the future to have 3 settings (off - 0.6 bar/low - 0.9 bar and high - 1.2). I dont think that VEMS provide several settings (but i might be wrong, of course)
the dyno and the log file are not from the same run. Dyno was performed with dyna pack (no tires) on 4th gear and the log is on 3rd (if i remember correctly). The car does not slip at 3rd gear so i probably did it on 3rd (on the road)
PS. I tried to tune the car up to 176kpa. beyond that i did not dare to go because i am not confident yet and also limited by injector size. so all the data above 176kpa can be ignored for now. I added a lot of fuel there in case i have boost spikes.
Also , i have a fuel pressure gauge and i see slow fluctuations at hard accel between 4 to 4.5 bar
There are two values related for ECU hardware calibration. Your nernst target is off for sure. So we can presume also pump zero as unchecked. Second one is more important. Please check! First one just describe target voltage for narrow-band part of sensor. Normally it is 0.45V. Now you have something higher.
Default tables comes together with each Vemstune. It is possible to import separate tables easily. Just push [import] and browse for file.
Sorry I haven't clue what is close to right values for your funky injection strategy. Mine would be somewhat like 100 60 30 15 for your rpms. Try more/less and keep that shape. Also take attention to AE TPS sensitivity graph.
What is your fuel base pressure? What is planed boost? Sum both. Set this sum in fuel rail (e.g. by attaching spare wheel pressure to FPR feedback nipple) and measure fuel flow in return. You want to see somewhat like 2.3L/min. Your 176Kpa line in VE table has same disturbance.
Is it simple engine with no camshaft angle or manifold geometry controls? Do you run OEM cams?
How dyno operator comment results? Sorry I misunderstood from where dyno graph comes.
BTW you can add potentiometer to VEMS or simpler kind - switch with 3 voltage levels - and get whatever boost levels you want! Within w-gate capabilities of course. Check "anytrim" feature! VEMS boostcontroller is really excellent!
Gints
I do not wish to play with hardware calibration done by DP, as they build it. I will consult them as well.
I've seen the default tables, thanks!
I will also re create the AE table to get better results.
The pressure valve is rated 3.5 bar. Maybe i should just replace the fuel pump to a more flowing one (it was planned anyway, just in a later stage).
The engine is simple. No geometry change or camshaft angle changes. It is 16v and the best head Peugeot had to offer for the 306. I run OEM cams.
The dyno operator said that something is wrong with ignition and that after 6000rpm there might be something wrong or Catalytic converter limitation
I will worry about boost control once i am sure the car is tuned well enough to push up the boost.
So you had misfires during dyno run?
No knocks were registered, i think he based the ignition problem after looking at my ignition maps (which is mild since till then i did not have dyno to tune ignition). i think i will schedule a dyno session to finish with ignition, but i cant to that before ensuring my config and sensors are ok.
Misfire is non successive ignition event. It is not knock.
Do you feel those torque waves on street?
I would:
Check and calibrate all sensors
http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=GenBoard%2FManual%2FWideBandHardwareTest
Turn off accelerateenrichments and fuelcut,
Check all base settings
Now drive the car with loggin on and ve analyser
Use lambda table for fueling
If fueling ok turn log on go wot from 1500 till 3500
Retard ignition 1deg do it again if wbo leaner its better
Add fuel if to lean in lambda table
Tune for drivebility not mathematics :)
I dont fell the torque waves, but maybe its hard to fill 3kgm diffs?
Anyway, my car is now at the garage since a oil cooler hose came off.
40Kgm are close to 40Nm. It is notable if you lose 10% of torque.
Hello all,
I went for several test runs and i have some questions + need help in mapping.
Note that the rev limiter is set for 6400 instead of 7000 - to be on the safe side for now.
config - https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6l1SB-S-teyajFnNFJVa0ZRUjg/edit (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6l1SB-S-teyajFnNFJVa0ZRUjg/edit)
test1 - https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6l1SB-S-teyeFlaQXQzdDE1UnM/edit (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6l1SB-S-teyeFlaQXQzdDE1UnM/edit)
test2 - https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6l1SB-S-teySFFqSUZKdzZLWlk/edit (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6l1SB-S-teySFFqSUZKdzZLWlk/edit)
test1 - i see that engine load is gradually going down as RPM rises. I am using an external boost controller. When its turned off - load reaches 175kpa - almost steady until rev limiter. With the boost control on - kpa reaches around 205 at start and, as you see - drops at rpm rises.
test2 - you can see a sudden drop in kpa to 130 and then resumes as expected. Is this something i should worry about or a glitch in datalogging?
general - you can see that evey tip in sends lambda very rich. But if i lower the AE settings, i get excessive lean when i step on the throttle.
Ignition - I am wondering if my ignition map is looking logical to you. I retarded a lot at boost since i havent yet used dyno for ignition mapping. But i would like to understand if i am in the right direction.
(http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/3663/42062012ign.png)
Thanks,
Always click the "validate config" button in VemsTune to get a config analysis.
If you read the answers you got earlier, I will repeat some of them here :
Your ECU wideband calibration numbers are off, ask "info at vems.hu" for the real ones.
Or follow these directions : http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=GenBoard%2FManual%2FWBSensorControllerTesting
You should upgrade to firmware 1.2.0, you're using ancient 1.1.64 which is difficult to support. Install the latest "nightly" release, first remove the old VemsTune installation directory completely. Then use the firmare update wizard.
Your tune is not very good (too rich) and wideband readings can't be trusted, and on top of that you're trying to ask why pressure behaves strange with some sort of boost control?
Stop that and solve one problem at the time.
Thanks for the reply,
The vems unit was bought as a plug and play, with the supplied wideband - from DP engineering.
The support pages clearly states no to touch nernst and and pump zero PW.
I am also working with a second wideband sensor (AEM wideband) and the readings are nearly the same as the vems.
I can try to upgrade to 1.2 but if things get messy, i wont have any kind of support and i will stay stuck with a unit which doesnt work and a dead car (its my daily car as well). So i am not too enthusiastic to do this.
BTW, the VE analyzer is very cool! I've just checked my log files with it.
I also see several very interesting tutorials on youtube. I guess i need to do more homework.
Quote from: fizban on July 01, 2012, 10:50:16 AMThe vems unit was bought as a plug and play, with the supplied wideband - from DP engineering.
The support pages clearly states no to touch nernst and and pump zero PW.
The supplied wideband is just a regular LSU4.2 wideband sensor. The values you mention are the ECU calibration values, not the sensor calibration. I'm pretty sure something's still not right even though the separate AEM gauge seems to agree.
Quote from: fizbanI can try to upgrade to 1.2 but if things get messy, i wont have any kind of support and i will stay stuck with a unit which doesnt work and a dead car (its my daily car as well). So i am not too enthusiastic to do this.
It should be pretty simple. After the firmware update wizard is done with it's work it should have uploaded a new config for the firmware version you just upgraded to. Use the "validate config" button to sort out any new and old settings that are not set right, some are this way to get your attention and not to bother you un-intentionally.
If you create a report from within VemsTune (see Help menu) and post the link here, someone (maybe me), can take a closer look at your new config file if you can't get things going like they used to. If you only describe the problem and don't present any config file to us then help will be that much harder to give.
ok, so lets start with the ECU calibration.
indeed its a LSU4.2 sensor (http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/product_info.php/products_id/345 (http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/product_info.php/products_id/345))
I checked the validation function and i get the warning about nernst which is 141 (values should be 128-140).
This is the only warning i get.
I checked vems.hu but could not find any calibration values. Any hints?
Mattias posted this http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=GenBoard%2FManual%2FWBSensorControllerTesting but it can be confusing to some. I found this http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=WildbandTest which is pretty much the same thing but a lot easier to understand but either needs the later versions of Vemstune with the WBO2 calibration tool, or knowledge on how to use a terminal program.
Be warned though that of you connect the resistors incorrectly or short anything out you might damage the box, so you really need to be confident about what you are doing.
Mattias also suggsted you try contacting Vems headquarters for this information so long as you can provide the serial number of the unit, which is found on the board itself or can be found in vemstune under 'firmware info'
If you don't wan't to try anything suggested above in fear of it not working, I suggest seeking direct help from some one that will be able to sort it for you.
I've sent mail to DP-engineering regarding this. They've just replied that since my ecu is an older one (i bought it 3 or 4 years ago) 141 is ok. But i can also tune 140 and re-calibrate sensor.
I bought the vems in the pnp version specifically so i wont need to deal with resistor and electronic stuff which risk destroying the unit.
BTW - i did an open air calibration of the WB with the terminal before tuning the car with the vems, so i do know a little about the terminal usage.
Personally I never saw units out of 13x area. Starting from s/n 7xx. This value does not give significant measurement error anyway. Only another calibration values can be uncertain.
1.1.6x is obsolete. So many useful features came after that! For both street and race use. Try to do backup (with firmware downgrade possibility) and go to newer released f/w. 1.1.96 (Some, including me had communications problems with 1.2.0)
External boost controller .... - nothing is better than VEMS internal PID based! Probably boost backpressure opens your W-gate...
Thanks.
Is there any page with changelog of versions?
The external boost controller give 3 stages i can use. I need to use config switch for the A/C control since it doesnt work well on single map when turning the A/C on (low rpm and stalls when releasing throttle).
So you think i need to increase there exhaust diameter? I do use a catalytic converter which restricts the flow. The pipes are 3". Maybe i can design a T with 2 catalytic converters...
Quote from: fizban on July 03, 2012, 05:03:16 PMI need to use config switch for the A/C control since it doesnt work well on single map when turning the A/C on (low rpm and stalls when releasing throttle).
Works excellent with idle air valve and idle ignition advance control, as is discussed in
YOUR thread here : http://www.vemssupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,1936.0.html
http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=GenBoard%2FUnderDevelopment%2FFirmwareChanges
Lot of reading :)
You can configure switchable boost levels with VEMS too.
Configswitch is easier nowadays.
I mean pressure inside exhaust manifold. It gradually open w-gate when gas flow increases. It is common behaviour and up to some level can be compensated with boost controller settings.
Gints
Mattias - I remember my Idle thread. My idle ref curve is set above the target RPM. ignition is 4-5 deg above idle advance in 600rpm to get recover. the only thing i didnt try is to lower ignition below 10 deg at idle, since mixture got erratic at that level. i can try again. The engine is indeed DOHC but it is not that modern (1998). Will retarding ignition at idle result in less CO?
Gints - What you say is logical, i think that i might not need to set the rev limiter at 7000 rpm, if at 6400 i get nearly to original Wastegate settings.
Quote from: fizban on July 03, 2012, 05:40:53 PM
Gints - What you say is logical, i think that i might not need to set the rev limiter at 7000 rpm, if at 6400 i get nearly to original Wastegate settings.
What you mean under this?
In any case you are below turbine max flow. Either raised rev limiter (if engine mechanics allow that) or raised boost (if no knock) will gain the power. Seems so.
I mean that with boost controller off, engine load is around 170-175kpa at start of boost until rev limiter at 6400.
With boost controller at 50% duty cycle, engine load starts around 200kpa at start boost and drops reaches 175kpa at 6400.
So from this (and from the fact that peak power at the dyno got 280bhp with 0.7 bar of boost@6000 rpm) i reach the conclusion that its better to shift gear instead of pulling the car over 6400rpm.
Original engine rev limiter is at 7200rpm. Engine size is 1998cc and the turbo is GT28RS with 0.6 A/R. Checking and calculating the compressor maps of this turbo against engine size indicates that the turbo is efficient at 0.7-1.2 bar
Indication of maxed turbine flow is non rising injector duty cycle with rising rpms. Means constant airflow. Yours still rising at limiter point.