I'm new here, so this will be my introduction, and hopefully a good explanation of my car/project. I'll try to keep it up to date as others have done.
So, here is my car:
(http://www.supercars.net/pitlane/pics/2570587a.jpg)
It is a USDM 1994 Nissan Sentra SE-R. I've taken the modification road that I think most people recommend, but rarely follow.
I upgraded brakes first:
Front:
(http://www.supercars.net/pitlane/pics/3252971d.jpg)
(http://www.supercars.net/pitlane/pics/3252971e.jpg)
Rear:
(http://www.supercars.net/pitlane/pics/287679a.jpg)
(http://www.supercars.net/pitlane/pics/287679c.jpg)
(http://www.supercars.net/pitlane/pics/287679d.jpg)
(http://www.supercars.net/pitlane/pics/287679e.jpg)
Needed new wheels to clear the brakes, so they went on too:
(http://www.supercars.net/pitlane/pics/2570587d.jpg)
I then moved to suspension, installing 3-way adjustable sway bars, rear tower brace, and I have stiffer spring/dampers on the way. (Sorry, no good pictures.)
The battery moved to the trunk in anticipation of turbo, and for better weight distribution:
(http://www.supercars.net/pitlane/pics/3253058b.jpg)
Notice external cut-off switch:
(http://www.supercars.net/pitlane/pics/3253058c.jpg)
(http://www.supercars.net/pitlane/pics/3253058d.jpg)
Now I'm finally on to the power (it's been four years since I started, continually being plagued by money issues). The money problem is no more, so it is time for a turbocharger. For those of you not familiar with these cars, the SE-R model came with the USDM SR20DE motor (also used in the USDM Infiniti G20). This is the detuned N/A version of the beloved SR20DET motor everyone is so keen on. After scratching the idea of turbo-ing my motor, I've decided to drop in a JDM SR20DET, trying to keep the cost and hassle down to a minimum. This is where VEMS comes in. I've decided against the typical JWT ECU. It would be a good choice, but I want to learn engine management, and I'm taking this chance to do just that.
EDIT Sep, 2007: I found out my stock motor is good for 350-400 HP on stock internals, so I've decided to just turbo my stock motor instead of doing a motor swap and take advantage of the better off-boost throttle response from the higher compression ratio (9.5:1 vs. 8.5:1).
The plan is to equip my N/A car with VEMS, get it working to stock or better performance, economy, etc. and learn what I have to learn about tuning an N/A motor. I will then drop in the turbo motor, and be in a good position to extract the amount of power that I'm looking for with general ease.
I've done my homework, and it seems I have two or possibly three major questions right now.
What do I have to do to buy VEMS, and whom/where should I buy it from?
What do I need to do about the Nissan trigger situation, and where can I get a machined cam angle sensor disc? (Should I do a crank angle sensor as well?)
Where do I get one of those wonderful VEMS to Nissan factory harness adapters I've seen pictures of, and which one will work with the car with the least re-wiring?
Let the party begin,
-Ben Fenner
Edit: If you're reading this for the first time, and don't want to wade through a whole ton of technical, Nissan specific craziness skip to page 8 where it gets more interesting.
Here is some more information about my plan of action:
I plan on working with the stock ignition (distributor) at first, getting that to work to learn how that is done, and to introduce as little new variables as possible. I'll then upgrade to coil-on-plug, or what ever the prevailing trend is, and do a sequential, non-wasted spark ignition set-up.
I'm not worried about sequential fuel delivery, semi-sequential or what ever is fine with me.
I've been conversing with Rob (
[email protected]) over e-mails, and he wants information about the USDM SR20DE wiring harness I'm using so he can decide which one of his harnesses would be best for me. Here is the info I have from my factory service manual. If there's anything else you need Rob, just ask. If you'd like, you could send me the pin information for your harnesses, and maybe I could do all the work, figuring out which one of yours would be best for me. Either way, here are the pictures:
ECU Harness Connector Terminal Layout
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/642579.jpg)
ECU Harness Connector Terminal Layout Explanation Page 1
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/642580.jpg)
ECU Harness Connector Terminal Layout Explanation Page 2
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/642581.jpg)
ECU Harness Connector Terminal Layout Explanation Page 3
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/642582.jpg)
ECU Diagram (condensed) [It might be a good idea to download this picture and rotate it for ease of reading.]
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/642578.jpg)
ECU Diagram (full) [It might be a good idea to download this picture and rotate it for ease of reading.]
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/642577.jpg)
(//)
Rob and I have also been talking about CAS trigger discs. We need to find out which one my engine has. Here is the picture from the FSM:
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/642583.jpg)
I will take the thing apart sometime soon, and get you good pictures and measurements. I just don't have a timing light right now to put the car back to normal when I'm done... =/
So, keep an eye out for those pictures soon.
You shouldn't need to remove the crank angle sensor, just pulling the cap off and removing the covering plate should show you the disk.
From the D-shaped centre I'm guessing that its the same as the black top SR20 CAS disk:
(http://www.vems.co.uk/VEMSLoom/SR_CASDisk.jpg)
If so, you can use that disk.
That is a 64 pin Nissan connector which I have in stock.
The problems you will encounter are: Air con, we dont have the facility to control it, as I understand things the ECU takes the aircon switch in to activate a higher idle, and it takes in the dual pressure switch to cut the aircon off when you got to WOT. As we have smart predictive idle we dont have the facility to control this, so you'd need to look at ways of driving this if you're so interested.
You should be able to use the Dual fans using the waterpump trigger to activate the second set, although these may be activated by the ECU for air con...
Finally I've never seen that particular way of firing the coil, it has the igniter built in it seems so controlling that will be easy enough as Its a case of controlling the transistor base in the usual way, it's the function of the resistor that is of primary concern - I know that some distributor systems monitor the coil for misfires, so it may be that but we need to know its documented function to be sure.
Yah, I was thinking I would have to remove the entire distributor unit from the engine. Obviously that is not the case now that you mention it. I'll be able to get pictures of the CAS disc very easily then. Watch for them soon.
As for the air conditioning... I completely removed mine during the installation of my third replacement engine (long stories) so that isn't a problem for me. My friend who's installing VEMS on his BMW e30 has A/C though, so he'll have to figure that out.
That's good to hear about the fan control. Water pump trigger. Got it.
About that resistor in the ignition circuit. I think I know which one you're talking about. It is connected to pin-3, correct? I will see what I can find out about it in the FSM.
I've looked all through the FSM and I can't find a better description of that resistor. I will post a question to the SE-R mailing list, and possibly message board to try to figure it out. I'm going to go take pictures of the CAS disc right now.
Rob, you said I have the 64 pin Nissan ECU harness. You sure it's not 66 pins? I counted from left to right, and got 33 for the top. Did you scroll the pictures left and right to see all of it? The forum format is cutting off part of the picture, with a scroll bar at the bottom. I wasn't sure if that threw you off.
The connector I'm thinking of has
8 wide (high current) pins
gap
7 pins
threaded connector
8 pins
gap
9 pins
Yep, that's the same one I have. I must have counted wrong. Stupid me.
I'll have those CAS disc pictures here soon, once the web site I use to host pictures gets its act back together... =/
If you don't see 11 pictures in the post below, the connection to the server is being slow, and you might have to wait a couple hours for it to work itself out. It doesn't normally have these problems though, so it shouldn't be a regular issue.
Here are the pics I took of the CAS disc in my car. I measured it at exactly 54 mm in diameter. I didn't really meassure the distances to the slots, or the holes. Sorry. From the looks of it, the black-top SR20 disc you mentioned before should work. I'll just have to drill two holes in it to make it work. Correct?
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/645158.jpg)
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/645159.jpg)
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/645164.jpg)
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/645165.jpg)
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/645166.jpg)
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/645167.jpg)
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/645192.jpg)
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/645193.jpg)
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/645194.jpg)
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/645195.jpg)
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/645196.jpg)
I'm still waiting to find out about that resistor. If I can't figure out what it's for, can we just pretend it doesn't exist? What would be the plan of action?
Oh, and apologies go out to any non-broad band users... =P
Hmm,
That looks to be the same as the Pulsar GTiR distributor type.
With this type it is possible to use a simple trigger which will drive a single coil using the distributor and batched firing. Which is not really what you're after.
It might be possible to put holes in the trigger disk and mount it that way, but I'll need to check the size of the disks tonight.
Just to be clear; this is the resistor we're talking about, right?
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/645441.jpg)
Yes thats the resistor.
Bad news on the disk front, the SX ones are 50mm (~2")
Is there likely to be a demand for these disks?
I wish I could say the US SR20 crowd has caught on to the stand-alone engine management scene, but they all seem to be satisfied with either the JWT offerings (pre-programmed ECUs) or stock turbo ECUs with piggy-back fuel/ignition/boost control. I could always swap on a different distributor like you mentioned before, and I could even skip a step, and go to coil-on-plug immediately. I still need the cam angle sensor data though. Which distributor would you recommend? Or what should I do?
I could always design my own disc and have www.emachineshop.com make one for me, or see if I can get my university machine shop to let me make one, or have them make it themselves. I'm not a stranger to a machine shop. This is an option as well.
Well the trouble is getting the disk thin enough, the first disks I got done were laser cut in 0.4mm stainless. The new ones are 0.2mm stainless that have been photo etched.
The ideal would be to use the S14 SR20DET CAS as I suspect it will be very similar to your existing distributor, I can measure up the CAS, but you'll need to either find a spare or extract your distributor to have a measure-up.
What exactly do you want me to measure? I'm not completely sure what you need.
Also, if I understand you correctly, the plan right now is to put the entire distributor assembly from a S14 SR20DET on my car, so I can use the disc we know will work? If I remember correctly, there is a difference between the FWD and RWD SR20s, and for some reason I remember their distributor locations being different. I will take a picture of the top of my engine an post it so we can make sure that will work. Maybe it's just in my head.
The measurements will be of the CAS's outer dimensions.
Theres no plan ATM just option considerations...
So when I say the diameter of the disc is 54 mm, that is not enough? What specific measurements do you need?
I guess that I am being too terse.
The disks I have wont work, you suggested going to coil on plug, so I am thinking about the possability of using an S14 CAS.
The key parts of the CAS are the drive gear, and the dimentions of the part where the CAS fits into the head.
Rob
I'm still working on figuring out that resistor.
I'm still open to exploring this S14 CAS, but while I'm milling that over, I'm curious about something else.
How much interest would make it worth it for you to develop a disc for my engine? What if I just paid for 10 discs? What would you need to make it worth your while? What if I could send you my disc, or one just like it?
Here's another thought. What if I just filled in 300+ holes with something like black nail polish, or covered them in some way that wouldn't put the wheel off-balance? Could this work? Have I gone off the deep end?
Just thinking.
The minium order for these disks is 50, so if you think I can sell a few I'll invest...
It fits the Pulsar nicely so theres a potential out there :)
If we cant find a decent use for the resistor you could always use a different coil driven by one of VEMS's built-in igniters.
Rob
I guess this resistor problem could be solved by purchasing any normal (possibly MSD) ignition coil. I'll look into that, or forgo that entirely, and just do coil-on-plug.
About the CAS disc: I'm going to design my own disc using www.emachineshop.com so I can get a quote on it. I figure it it is less than $75, it would be worth it.
By the way, how much do you charge for one of your discs?
I'd go for a cheap solution like the Bosch blue coil that all the VW boys seem to love, although MSD does look good under the hood :D
I charge 15GBP for a disk.
I designed my own disc this morning:
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/646979.jpg)
It is 0.2mm thick Stainless Steel Type 430C (Martensitic) using photochemical milling as the process. I was pretty foolish in thinking I could do it this way, as I'm sure Rob knows. The price per disc if I had one disc made would be $342 USD (171 GBP), yet the price per disc if I had 14 made would be $29.27 USD (14.60 GBP) which is about what Rob charges (minus shipping). If I had 50 made like Rob does, the price per disc goes down to $12.18 USD (6.10 GBP). I don't have that sort of money to spend on this sort of thing. =(
I wonder if there are 13 other people out there in a similar situation as me...
I could always try to start a group buy on the Sentra forums... But I doubt the interest would be high.
It looks like I'm back to square one.
I've given thoughts to purchasing a stock disc from Nissan and modifying it myself. I would join two or three holes together to make one larger hole, and I would blank out (somehow) a couple holes in between each enlarged hole. This could then be checked for balance on a high speed rotary tool (dremel). It might be worth it if I can get a disc cheaply. I'm going to call my parts guy and get a quote.
About the Bosch blue coil you mentioned. It seems like it would suit my needs just fine. I can purchase it for about $40 USD (20 GBP) shipped from www.jcwhitney.com and upon searching for an MSD ignition coil, I found they are only about $10 USD (5 GBP) more than the VW coil, so that is what I will buy, and we can consider this ignition resistor problem solved. I could also get the car running, and then use the stock coil pack with the resistor and see how that works, so we will know if it is even a real issue or not. You know, for future generations. =]
So, if the quote for the stock CAS disc comes back, and it isn't too expensive, you can assume I am ready to purchase VEMS and associated things.
Here's an update:
I got a quote of $361 USD (180 GBP) for a re-manufactured Nissan CAS disc, and I think to get that price I have to send in a core for exchange. I'm not sure if this is the price for the disc, or the entire distributor assembly, but either way this is not an option either. There is an auction on eBay for a used USDM SR20DE distributor (not sure what year, and I haven't gotten a response from the seller yet) that I might buy for cheap, giving me a disc to work with. If this doesn't work, I will just use my original disc, and modify it as I've described above. I am confident I'll find a decent method of filling in the unwanted holes, so I've decided this will be the method I take.
Also, I've decided to purchase a new coil (probably MSD) to avoid any problems with my current coil.
As far as I can tell, I've got a solution to the problems I was worried about. I'm ready to order my VEMS unit.
I will post again soon with the information on my specific VEMS order, and a list of the other things I got and why.
I bought the distributor that I hope has the correct CAS disc inside today from eBay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=007&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=170142049892&rd=1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=007&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=170142049892&rd=1)
Hopefully it will be the correct part. We'll see.
Jon from the SE-R mailing list wrote this about the resistor; looking at pin-3 from inside the ECU:
---------
Ben,
I looked at the schematic of the ECU... pin 3 feeds through a resistor to a chip that appears to be a pulse detector, then through two flip-flops and into the uC. It looks like the pin on the uC changes state every time the ignition coil fires. I think you can safely ignore pin 3. It is probably used by the ECU for diagnostics.
Jon Davis
---------
So, I'm betting I won't need to worry about that at all. If I have to, I can always buy a different coil, but for now I'll assume the stock component will work just fine.
Rob mentioned AEM may make a disc for my distributor. I found a couple posts on their forum that confirm this. Here's one with pictures:
http://forum.aempower.com/forum/index.php/topic,20605.0.html (http://forum.aempower.com/forum/index.php/topic,20605.0.html)
I've already ordered what I hope is another stock disc, but I will talk to AEM and see if I can get one of theirs, as it would be easier than modifying one. Here's hoping they can provide.
Those disks are not any good for the front wheel drive (transverse engines) with the distributor cap - these are the RWD S-body and Skyline types which are exactly the same as the ones that I have.
I wonder if it would be better for you to send me a disk me to get them photo etched and take my chances with reselling them...
Rob
There are a bunch of GTi-R guys on their forums. I wonder what they are doing. Probably making due with the stock disc.
Who are you using to make the discs? www.emachineshop.com might be able to give you a much better price. Like I said, they were going to charge me 6 GBP per disc if I had 50 made. I could send you a disc, if the one I get ends up being the correct one. Or, I could give you all of the measurements you'd ever need. Also, I'm confident the disc I designed earlier would be a perfect fit.
I understand that we've got the GTIR working on batch injection and ignition coil which I'd guess would be the simplest way to get running.
Its handy if I have the wheel in my hands so that I can refer to it should there be a question. I'll be happy to use the photoetching company I used before, they're a good bunch, based locally to me.
Batch injection is fine, but batch ignition is not going to work for long, as I'll be going coil-on-plug soon, and will want sequential.
Really, I can make a working disc from the stock unit. Don't go spending a bunch of money to have discs made that you won't be able to sell. Not on my behalf anyway.
If you're still interested, I can certainly send you my spare disc once it arrives. In that case, I will do my best to get the word out to the SE-R community about VEMS and stand-alone in general, so maybe a couple FWD types will be looking for discs.
Jon from the SE-R mailing list seems certain a RWD distributor will not fit a FWD engine, as the RWD dist. is gear driven, and the FWD dist. is driven directly from the end of the cam.
He mentioned the idea of altering the signal from the stock CAS before it gets to the ECU. My electrical engineer friend came up with the same idea. I guess I'd forgotten about it. The idea would be to use the stock CAS and distributor, and take the 360 pulses sent to the ECU, intercept them, and only send along as many as VEMS can handle. This is based on my understanding of VEMS's limitations. As I understand it, there is too much overhead processing involved in handling 360 pulses per disc revolution, hence the discs with less holes. If a circuit could be designed to allow through every 6th pulse, or what-have-you, then I'd be in business. Am I understanding the problem correctly?
Once again, if I am understanding the limitations correctly, why couldn't there be a setting built into either MegaTune or the VEMS firmware (where ever it would belong) that allows the ECU to ignore 5 out of every 6 trigger inputs? I'm just thinking out loud.
Update:
Apparently I don't understand the Nissan disc problem/limitation as much as I thought I did. Needless to say, I'd like to learn a bit more, and I'll see what I can figure out along the way.
In the meantime, I've been talking with Rob about possible solutions to this problem. The distributor I ordered off eBay came today. There is good news and bad news. The bad news is, it is not the same distributor as I have. It looks to be of a newer design. The good news is, it is a FWD distributor, should work with my car, and it has a 50mm CAS disc. That means I will probably be able to install this distributor on my current engine, and then be able to use the 50mm discs designed for the RWD engines. So, all in all, things are looking up. And if this works out, this could be the solution most FWD people will take, provided they can find a distributor as cheaply as I did.
I do have one problem though. Here's how I put it to Rob:
----------
I just can't seem to catch a break...
I will take relevent photos of the distributor and disc when I can. I'm having trouble getting the disc retainer off. It is held by a screw, and it must have been tightened by Hercules himself. I've almost stripped the head entirely, which is a combination Philips/flathead design. I'm thinking I'll add penetrating lubricant and possibly purchase one of those bits designed to remove such a thing. Either way, I'm having a tough time with this, which is extremely annoying, as I'm used to being able to remove things without breaking them. I knew it would be tough, as the one on my car was tough, so I was gentle with it. It broke anyway. I can't get at it with any vise-grips or anything. If you have any ideas. Shoot them to me. =]
----------
So... This is where I stand now. Expect pictures soon I guess.
The screw is still stuck. I'm headed to Sears right now to look for some type of extractor. Wish me luck.
Never underestimate the correct tools for the job.
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/652601.jpg)
I've taken some pictures. As far as I can tell, it is a FWD distributor. It should work with my car. It is different than the one on my car though. It does not have a connection on the cap for the ignition coil. Apparently it has a coil built in. This shouldn't pose a problem I don't think.
Here are the disc dimensions:
Diameter: 50mm
Center hole diameter: 10mm
Center hole shape: "D" shape
Additional alignment holes: None
Beginning of crank angle hole: 17mm from center
End of crank angle hole: 20mm from center
Beginning of cam angle hole: 21mm from center
End of cam angle hole: 24mm from center
End of disc: 25mm from center
All of these measurements are approximate, but extremely close to the actual values.
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/652598.jpg)
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/652585.jpg)
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/652586.jpg)
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/652591.jpg)
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/652592.jpg)
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/652597.jpg)
The only thing I'm not sure on now, is which wires I'll be using. As I have no idea yet what year engine this distributor came from, I'm not sure where to begin figuring out what wire does what. Am I right in assuming the plug with 6 wires is the CAS stuff. Anyone know specifically which wires do what?
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/652599.jpg)
I assume the plug with two wires is the positive and negative for the built-in coil. Can anyone confirm this? On second thought. I'll just run this by the Nissan guys over on their forum.
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/652600.jpg)
Those measurements match mine ;D
The best thing to do with those two pins is to measure the resistance across them.
Rob
I might not have gotten good readings (using makeshift wires in school lab). I will get better readings when I get my multimeter back.
Resistance across two pin plug: 0.8 Ohms (Seems about right for a coil-pack, no?)
Not to sure about these, I've forgotten:
Resistance across pin-1 and pin-2 of 6-pin plug: 5,000 Ohms
Resistance across pin-5 and pin-6 of 6-pin plug: 0.5 k Ohms
These I figure are the Cam angle and crank angle sensors.
Anyway, I'll have better info later.
So, I've gone ahead and ordered most of what I'll need. For those of you looking to do something similar to me, here's a picture of what I got:
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/656123.jpg)
I did not order directly from the VEMS webshop. I went through Rob from the forums, but either way would be fine.
I got the red LCD to give to a friend with red dash lights. I will acquire his blue LCD for my car. Rob recommened against using the LCD, but I decided to give it a shot anyway. Apparently noise/surge from the injector drivers can fry the LCD. I'll keep my fingers crossed. I wonder if voltage caps would help?
I got all 8 ignition drivers. Only 4 are needed for my 4 cylinder engine, but I decided to get the extra 4 just in case.
There's no real reason I chose the 5/3mm pneumatic fitting for the MAP connector over the 6/4mm fitting. I just like smaller things. As my friend pointed out, the larger connector may be better (quicker response?)
I got two other items directly from Rob. I got his 64-pin Nissan ECU harness connector. This should make installation a breeze, as I'll be re-using 95% of the factory wiring harness, and will only have to run EGT and air temp. wiring.
I also got a CAS disc that will fit the new distributor I sourced.
As I'm in the United States, it is cheaper for me to source everything else local. I've found great prices for the items I've needed at www.DIYAutoTune.com . I picked up:
-Bosch LSU4.2 5-wire, wide-band O2 sensor
-WB02 bung and plug
-open element (turbo) Idle Air Temperature sensor
-IAT bung and plug
I'll take pics of everything once they arrive. And then I'll be able to start making my wiring harness to VEMS adapter.
I got my VEMS in the mail today. Everything looks good. Man, that red LCD looks a lot different than the blue one. Oh well.
I'm still waiting on the CAS disc and the Nissan ECU plug. Hopefully that will come soon. I'll post pictures later.
I've received the Nissan ECU plug and the CAS disc in the mail. The CAS disc center hole is maybe a micrometer too small, but that's nothing I can't fix.
I'm in the process of making my factory wiring harness adapter, and I ran into a snag or two. I'm wondering how I should do the grounds. I'd like to re-use the factory grounds if they will suffice. I'll tell you what I plan on doing, and you (Rob) tell me if there is a better way.
I'll find all of the sensor grounds plus all of the other grounds in the factory harness pin-out and connect them all to one point. Then I will connect all of the VEMS grounds to that same point. This point will not be grounded directly to anything, it will be free-floating, wrapped in electrical tape.
Does this sound like a good plan, or is there another way I should go about it?
My second question involves the powering of the VEMS unit itself. As far as I can tell, there is one source of power for VEMS (pin-25 on EC36). In my application, would it be best to use pin-36 from the Nissan harness even though it also powers the ignition coil? How have you done it in your other Nissan harness adapters?
Here's the wiring diagram again for reference:
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/642578.jpg)
Do it like this:
(http://www.vems.co.uk/VEMSUserManual/VEMSToFactoryGrounds.png)
As long as you get the sensor grounds (21 and 29???) into the cluster at the right point, have the wires all joined 10 to 15cm from the EC36 plug and have all of the VEMS grounds connected (use all of the thick pin grounds first) then you'll be close to perfect.
Yah, I've seen that diagram before. I just never paid much attention to the bottom label. =]
Is it necessary to connect all of the sensor grounds to the pin-26 wire, and then have 20mm of wire until the common point, or can they all just be connected to a common point?
Also, I asked a question about powering the VEMS in my last post. Do you have an answer to that? More generally, should VEMS be powered all the time, or just when the key is in start/on position?
One more question. Do you know what to do for the tachometer signal on a Nissan? Which pin in the VEMS connector should I use to send a tach signal to my dash tachometer?
The forum is listing Rob as the last poster, so I think Rob has missed my questions.
Bump.
You can connect the sensor grounds to the common point, you want as many ground wires as you can possibly have.
VEMS should be powered when the key is in the ignition on position.
Tacho you can use a p259 channel, run a wire to the tacho out and use a 330-500ohm pull up resistor from the 5v supply to the tacho line.
Quote from: BenFenner on September 19, 2007, 07:04:47 PM
It is necessary to connect all of the sensor grounds to the pin-26 wire, and then have 20mm of wire until the common point, or can they all just be connected to a common point?
Also, I asked a question about powering the VEMS in my last post. Do you have an answer to that? More generally, should VEMS be powered all the time, or just when the key is in start/on position?
One more question. Do you know what to do for the tachometer signal on a Nissan? Which pin in the VEMS connector should I use to send a tach signal to my dash tachometer?
Okay, just to clarify; VEMS gets power when the key is in the on position, but what about in the start position? Yes?
For the tachometer signal, you want me to hook up one of the P259 channels to the tachometer, and also connect a wire from EC36-pin28 (+5V supply) to the previously mentioned wire, with a 330-500 ohm resistor in series?
If start position means when the engine is cranking then yes.
And yes on the resistor in series.
Thanks for the help Rob. I don't think I have any more major issues left. You should see regular progress from here on out. I'm almost finished with my wiring harness adapter. I just have to connect a few sensor grounds to the "ground blob".
I've just spent 4 hours replacing my original distributor with the new style. It was a lot of work getting the wiring correct, but now it runs with my factory ECU. I feel like I've completed a major milestone. Now I just have to get access to a timing light so I can get it running well again. Right now it's pretty low on power.
Updates and pics soon.
Pictures and descriptions are coming soon, I promise. In the meantime I'm knee deep in the installation of VEMS. I've got it powered up and talking to my computer. I'm doing the first step of configuring the crank trigger. I've ran into a problem, so I've got that discussion here:
http://www.vemssupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,261.0.html (http://www.vemssupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,261.0.html)
New problem with ignition. Discussion is here:
http://www.vemssupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,262.0.html (http://www.vemssupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,262.0.html)
The ignition problem is mostly solved.
On to the next step: idle control.
I don't think my idle control valve is being activated. I don't know which output corresponds to EC36-pin9 (injector 5, channel 16). I pick INJFET, but I don't know what channel to pick to drive it. I've tried almost all of my choices, and none seem to work.
I only have my VEMS powered with the ignition on. It doesn't require any "keep alive" to store settings.
You can use any of the digital out signals to send a tacho signal. I favour one of the P256 outputs since they are my only spares (I have a fully sequential v8) but other people use spare inj FETs or coil drivers. Just configure it in the tacho settings bit of Megatune.
It's best to get the grounding done as closely as possible to the diagram. The measurements themselves are approximate, but the concepts are important - the sensors will suffer a bit less from noise with the extra 20mm of wire from the ground point.
Quote from: BenFenner on October 02, 2007, 05:33:43 AM
The ignition problem is mostly solved.
On to the next step: idle control.
I don't think my idle control valve is being activated. I don't know which output corresponds to EC36-pin9 (injector 5, channel 16). I pick INJFET, but I don't know what channel to pick to drive it. I've tried almost all of my choices, and none seem to work.
Working from
Extras->Idle Settings GeneralThe
Idle solenoid channel should be INJFET (as selected) but the
Idle solenoid channel # can be a little more confusing as it relates to the output setting in
Settings->Injector Outputs. So... if you set:
Extras->Idle Settings General - Idle solenoid channel # to 7
And then in
Settings->Injector Outputs set the box labled as 7 to
16The same sort of mentality works for the boost control solenoid and so on. What I tend to do is to setup my injector pattern in
Settings->Injector Outputs boxes 0-3 (as I tend to deal with 4 cylinder engines) then set 4 to 7 as
16, 32, 64, 128.
Why is this so confusing you may ask? Well its because we've made it possible to activate multiple Injector FETs for batch fire and so on.
This morning the car wouldn't start. I've lost all spark. I've spent a long time figuring out, but I'm taking a break. Suffice it to say, I'm back to square one. I'll bring up any issues if I run into some, but for now I'm just cranking away at the diagnosis. Maybe one question. Is it possible that running four ignition outputs to channel 0 the way I am, could burn out channel 0? Not likely I figure, but I thought I'd just ask.
After hours of checking and re-checking things, I finally decided all of the wiring and hardware was good. I could take the ignition pin out of the EC36 connector and ground it myself, which would produce a spark in the plug. When VEMS was controlling the wire, nothing was happening. I decided to start from the beginning and load firmware. A couple firmware loads later, and I've got spark again.
Seriously. Wtf?
Okay, so now it should run again I figure. No dice. Another couple hours go by and it turns out none of the P259 channels are responding at all. The fuel pump relay is on P259 channel 5, and I'm sure it's not working as I can't hear it anymore. The tachometer in my dash stopped working (P259 channel 1). I found it easy to test, as the coolant fan relay is on P259 channel 0, and it was working like clockwork yesterday. When I set the temperature setting for the coolant fan, and burn it to the ECU, the fan would immediately turn on, and when I set the temp. high, it would immediately turn off. No such luck today.
Any ideas on what's up with my P259 channels?
VEMS seems to act completely randomly sometimes (in bad ways). It's gotten to the point where my friend and I haven taken bets on which set of outputs will fail tomorrow. =/
I should add though that Rob's help has been indispensable. =D
If you disconnect all the P259 channels, do you get a regular spark?
What I'm thinking is that we initally remove all the P259 connections and see if one is holding the chip high in some way or we've got a ground loop - which I've seen cause strange issues.
Rob
So you want me to disconnect all the P259 channels, then change the ignition outputs back to 00 only (instead of 03..00) and see if I get the four sparks I should have been getting from the beginning?
You did catch the part where I said ignition is working now?
Leave the 3..0 part as it is, and just disconnect the p259 pins.
So what should I be paying attention to when looking for a change? We think the ignition will behave differently?
What I'm expecting is the spark to be consistent rather than having to mess around with firmware.
Then introduce each one of the P259 connections in turn to see if you can find one that causes the system to fail.
If that doesnt work, try combinations.
Went out tonight, no spark. Unplugged all P259 channels, no spark. Reflashed firmwares like it was my job, no spark. Nothing I did got spark back. I recall yesterday switching the ignition output to EC36-pin 33 with no luck, but then EC36-pin10 recovered spark. I tried that again. No dice.
Manually grounding the P259 stuff would turn things on (fuel pump, radiator fans, etc.)
The only other thing of note: I checked my grounds for resistance. The best ground I have at the front of the car is an 8 gauge wire that goes to my battery in the trunk. This wire powers an audio amplifier under my dash. The resistance from the battery terminal to this ground is 15 Ohms. The resistance between the VEMS grounding pins and the battery terminal is 30 Ohms or so. Not sure if this helps any.
Currently dead in the water with no spark.
When you crank the engine does the RPM read on MegaTune?
Remember to make sure that you save your configuration inbetween firmware upgrades using the download-config.bat, generate-config.bat and upload-config.bat files, loading and saving MSQs are not the recommended way of doing things.
No RPM and P259 problems are commonly associated with grounding problems, I dont suppose that you could do me a photo of the harness?
And send me over the config.txt and tables.txt and I'll test them on my bench with the same trigger setup that you have.
Rob
When I crank the engine, I still get an rpm reading. It's been very consistent.
Yes, I've been saving and loading the config files to restore settings. But now that you mention it, I haven't been generating the config files I don't think... so maybe I've been using old *.mtt files this whole time. I'll look into that. Even so, I made sure the settings were correct each time before moving on.
I'll get you pictures of the wiring harness adapter, and e-mail you my configuration files. I'll probably send you the one's I've been using, and the one's I thought I should be using. =P
Here is the wiring harness adapter in all it's glory.
The common grounding point should be easy to spot. It may look ugly, but there's no resistance across it.
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/669582.jpg)
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/669583.jpg)
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/669584.jpg)
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/669585.jpg)
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/669586.jpg)
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/669587.jpg)
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/669592.jpg)
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/669593.jpg)
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/669594.jpg)
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/669599.jpg)
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/669600.jpg)
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/669602.jpg)
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/669601.jpg)
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/669603.jpg)
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/669604.jpg)
So, any thoughts on what to do/test next?
It's so humid out, I'm not going to go mess with it unless I have a plan.
I turns out for the most part I was creating the config files prior to uploading them. I just wasn't in charge of that, and so I'd forgotten it needed to be done. My friend said he'd been doing it.
Good ground cluster there, thats fairly key.
I've run those configs on my test bench and its looking very strange...
First theres spark, then theres no spark, I'm seeing the coil 0 issue its 1/4 the speed of the RPM - very odd...
Theres some investigation to be done here, hold tight and I'll see what I can find...
Rob
I'm not going mad!
Excellent.
I'm so glad you could reproduce it. Take your time to figure it out.
Rob gave me new config files to try.
Still no spark.
Awaiting further help.
Rob's now told me with the 1.1.xx firmware, the 6V dwell time must be set to zero. No idea what happens when it doesn't, or why the programmers didn't force zero, but what ever.
Also, Rob's given me a new config file to try. My girlfriend is down for the weekend, so I'll see when I can get to trying it.
We are also doing a load of work on this, I've been scoping the outputs on my unit on the test bench, with Jorgen's help last night we did some diff's on various configs and are trying to see what exactly caused the problem.
Your original configs (The ones that you sent on Thursday) are going to be studied carefully this weekend by Marcell who is doing a large number of tests across a range of triggers and configurations.
One thing that Jorgen said was that you should perhaps quit the firmware uploads, once the firmware is up its the changes to the configs and tables that change the way the system works, the firmware is static, its stored in flashmemory which cannot be changed apart from a reflash.
I'm not sure about the 6V dwell time to be honest, its something that I'll be looking at to try and understand and document, I know that there have been significant changes in 1.1.xx firmware regarding dwell time and the way that VEMS controls the coil charging based on RPM.
Okay, I'll stop the firmware uploading. I understand it's static, but from my point of view, it seemed to change something when I changed it, however crazy that sounds. Thanks for all the work you've been doing, and will be doing. I appreciate it.
I'm recalling this from memory, so don't quote me on this. I tried the config and table files you sent. When I try to create the *.mtt files from them, the table file can not create. It complains about the line beginning in "y[0]" saying it and everything after it is an invalid line I believe. When I removed all "y" entries from the table text file, it created the mtt file with two warnings.
I then uploaded the mtt files, and gave the car a crank. No spark. I didn't have much time, so that's all I did. I just wanted to let you know, as I'm still busy with other things. Maybe it's a quick fix for you. Did that table file really work for you on your end?
The Y entry is from the newere 1.1.27 code.
And yes it did work, believe me I would not waste your or my time giving you configs that were not tested.
The reason the P259 channel on the pump was not working on the config you sent me had the fuel pump 'disabled' which explains the lack of output.
The next thing to try is to move the IGBT channel to 01 (EC36-pin33) we cannot be sure that a short or something has hurt the IGBT.
And I found out the reason why you had to have h[2] = 00 00 00 00 ... thats because 1.1.18 was a Coil On Plug only firmware, which of course the Nissan 200SX has, its no biggie just have to set all your h[2] entries
The config file I sent to you the first time, or any other time may or may not have had the fuel pump output disabled. I was enabling and disabling it quite often trying to get the P259 channels to work. The fact that it was disabled shouldn't mean anything, as I'm surely enabling it on my end when I'm messing around (remember I'm still just trying to get spark to work again).
1.1.18 is a COP only firmware you say? Well terrific. So that's why I only get 1/4 the spark, and have to "trick" it into giving me the correct amount. Okay. I can live with that. Still doesn't help me get spark back I guess.
I see what you're saying about the IGBT channel. Is that the next step?
Keep in mind I've tried channels 00 (EC36-pin35), 01 (EC36-pin33), and 07 (EC36-pin10) thinking the same thing you are. Once when I had no spark, moving to channel 01 didn't help, but then moving to channel 07 produced spark immediately. I then went back to channel 00 and had spark still. So, I can try as many outputs again as you'd like, but I'm doubting it's a bad IGBT. Still worth a try I guess.
So what should I try now? Do you want me to upgrade to 1.1.27 and give the configs you sent earlier another go?
I really don't think that the intermittent nature of the spark is related to firmware or configuration, and electronics either works or it doesn't... If there was a dry joint somewhere then you'd get the intermittent failure, but a dry joint wouldnt be effected by the configuration.
I know this sounds stupid, and its not in anyway trying to detract from whats happening, but I hade all manner of issues with those AMP plugs securing properly, the soldering can cause the pins to become loose, and the not line up particuarly well. In the end I zip tied the plugs together through the screw holes that are on the socket I sent you. That bolt needs to be massively tight too.
Yah, when soldering I had a couple pins start to melt the plastic, and come out of line. I made sure they lined up correctly each time I finished, and when I was done, it looked like it'd never been touched.
I felt the connection could be suspect as well, which is why when I had no spark, I'd take the pin out of the EC plug and ground it to the chassis to make sure the connection was made. I'll tighten the screw more, as it is a little loose, but I've been around electronics enough to make sure every little thing like that is taken care of.
Is there any other firmware (older or newer) that will understand my trigger set-up, which also might take to my configuration more kindly?
Have I even given your last conifg files a correct run-through?
By the way, the new server seems to be much faster for me. =]
What about running a wire from the coil '-' direct to the EC36 pin? Just to take all the other wires out of the equation.
I'm fast running out of ideas :(
Its the intermittent nature of this thats really killing the fault finding.
Incidentally the reason that no 6v dwell added is set to zero, is so that no extra dwell is added at high revs.
Rob
Quote from: [email protected] on October 10, 2007, 06:33:37 PM
What about running a wire from the coil '-' direct to the EC36 pin? Just to take all the other wires out of the equation.
Yah, that's a good point. I'll try that too.
I know what you mean about the intermittent thing causing major problems with diagnosis. I deal with problems at work all the time (computer technician) and I know what this must be like to diagnose.
We'll get it.
I'll try the few things left on my plate soon and get back to you.
Good news. I went out tonight and tightened the ECU plug connector to where it should have been all along. We then got spark, and for the entire night we had spark, no questions about it, no matter what config we loaded. I hate to admit it, but I feel it was my fault with the connector, and we can probably assume it won't happen anymore. Which makes it even more odd that you reproduced the results on your test bench. =/
The P259 channels are still not working, and we couldn't get them to work all night. I manually grounded the fuel pump relay, and we had the car starting and sort of idling consistently all night. We got ambitious and tried to get the idle working without success.
I've got a few questions that I'd like answers to.
When setting the base timing, it seemed that when I put a higher value in for "TDC after trigger (deg)" the ignition timing during cranking would retard. A lower value seemed to advance the timing. This was counter intuitive for me. This is the way it should be working though? And when I change this value by 15 degrees, I should expect a 15 degree change in timing? (Because I was getting 10 instead of 15).
Crank timing aside; when the car was idling, I was expecting 15 degrees BTDC as that was what was in my spark table, put I kept getting 5 degrees BTDC, and it didn't seem to matter what I put in the spark table. What's the deal?
I assume since I have ignition working now, we can figure these other things out, but I'm curious as to whether or not there's an older (more stable) firmware I can use that you might recommend instead as I'm not really confident in what I'm using. But then again, I'm not very experienced with VEMS yet.
Tachometer, fuel pump relay and coolant fan relay P259 outputs are not working. I guess that's our next step. That and this annoying timing crap.
Well thats good news to start with, what I was seeing with your config and tables was: erratic spark (which I assumed was happening when the rotor was not lined up.) The P259 was disabled (as mentioned before) which initially looked like the whole thing was buggered.
1.1.18 is a good release and we've had a full season's racing with the Time Attack S13 using it, so I wouldnt expect to see any advantage changing it.
I think one of the problems that we're going to have with the distributor providing the timing and the spark distribution is that theres more than likely going to be a mis-fit between the rotor arm and the trigger pattern directly below it, the way to get around that quickly would be to go to 4 coils, or to take a long hard look at where the triggers are in relation to the rotor arm (with that spare coil onto cylinder 1 and the fuel pump off you could - with care) strobe the cranking distributor to see the relative positioning.
To get round the issue with the P259, use one of the FET or IGBT channels to switch the fuel pump and coolant fans, even with COPs you'd still have 4 spare coil channels to drive them:
I259 0 EC36 pin 35 Drive 00
I259 1 EC36 pin 33 Drive 01
I259 2 EC36 pin 34 Drive 02
I259 3 EC36 pin 36 Drive 03
I259 4 EC36 pin 11 Drive 04
I259 5 EC36 pin 12 Drive 05
I259 6 EC36 pin 24 Drive 06
I259 7 EC36 pin 10 Drive 07 7 A Ignition Driver
Quote from: BenFenner on October 11, 2007, 07:13:03 AM
When setting the base timing, it seemed that when I put a higher value in for "TDC after trigger (deg)" the ignition timing during cranking would retard. A lower value seemed to advance the timing. This was counter intuitive for me. This is the way it should be working though? And when I change this value by 15 degrees, I should expect a 15 degree change in timing? (Because I was getting 10 instead of 15).
The TDC after trigger defines the size of gap between trigger tooth and TDC.
If the gap is for example 60deg, and you set the value as 65deg then VEMS will think that the TDC is 5deg after TDC so the overall timing will be retarded by 5deg. If you set it a 55deg then it will be 5 deg advanced. For an extreme example if you set TDC after trigger to 10 deg the whole timing would be advances by 50degrees.
What value do you have? You should be aiming for 60 to 65 deg TDC after trigger, I've seen some strange advance behaviour happen when I get to either extremes of the possible settings.
Yah, I'm around 0.0 to 6.0 for that value. And this is with the trigger tooth set to 0 as well. If I set it to 1, the timing retards aprox. 60 degrees. And if I set it to 2, the timing marks go out of my view area.
I'm going to flip the CAS disc back to the original install position I had it in. I'm pretty optimistic that I'll be able to set the trigger tooth at 2 or 3 maybe, and have the TDC after trigger value to something around 60.
I realize we can use my other outputs to cover for the fact that the P259 channels are misbehaving, but as this is a new item, and something I spent quite a bit of money on, I'd prefer if it worked correctly. If you know what I mean. =]
So if you set it to 1 and set the TDC after trigger value to 50 you should have a 10 degree cranking advance (if cranking advance is set to 10)?
Quote from: [email protected] on October 12, 2007, 05:29:23 PM
So if you set it to 1 and set the TDC after trigger value to 50 you should have a 10 degree cranking advance (if cranking advance is set to 10)?
I was wrong, when I change the tooth value from say 0 to 1, the timing changes 30 degrees. When I said 60, I was wrong.
I'm not even going to work my head around what you just asked, because I'm pretty sure Dan and I have it figured out.
We've come to the consensus after working on the car this morning that the distributor system is not up to the task. We flipped the disk, tried every combination of trigger tooth and TDC after trigger value, and manual timing advance. We could always get back to where we were, which just isn't good enough. We couldn't get the TDC after trigger value to be anywhere near 60 and have the timing in spec. After finally understanding how this whole system works, we looked at the position of the rotor, crank trigger hole, and cylinder 1 distributor post and decided we needed to turn the rotor within the distributor. It appeared to have 3 positions possible (mounting in a triangle base) but when we tried to turn it, we found this to be impossible, as the rotor would not seat. We think if someone else is going to do a FWD SR20 engine, and they absolutely insist on using the distributor, they could modify the rotor seat or rotor to allow this change, but I'm finished trying to get this to work. Don't get me wrong; I'm not fed up because of all the hours I've put into it. I would have come to the same conclusion much faster had everything been working correctly.
EDIT Nov. 28, 2007: After a lot of thought, I've realized it might be possible to still use the Nissan distributor without going to COPs. Instead of rotating the distributor rotor to another position somehow, the same results could be produced by transposing the spark plug wires on the distributor cap. I don't want to go through the hassle of trying it, but I'm confident it should work.Coil on Plug, or some sort of ghetto coil near plug is the answer. I wasn't planning on doing it this soon, but I'll grab some COPs very soon. In the meantime I'll get the wiring ready for it, and I'll be working with Dan on his car.
Any recommendations on what type of COP to use? I heard somewhere (SR20 forums or VEMS forums) that Nissan's COPs weren't really the greatest. I assume they'd work fine, but if there's something else I should get, I'm all ears.
S14 COPs are pretty good, it seems that the Skyline COPs are not much good.
IIRC dnb off this very forum has these:
http://www.034motorsport.com/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=39
running his V8, for a CNP installation.
Or you could go wasted spark. Its upto you.
Me, I go down the breakers and grab what I think might work, I've had Subaru coil packs, Mitusbishi Lancer EVO 4, VW etc etc. The only ones I couldnt get working right was the Lexus IS200 coils, but I reckon they'd run a treat with a bit of work :D
If you say the S14 COPs are good, then I'll go with those.
If I were to do coil near plug, I'd just grab 3 more of the Nissan coil that I already have, or grab 4 of those VW beetle ones you mentioned to me a while back.
I could do wasted spark, but I figure if I'm doing anything to the ignition, I might as well get it to the point where I intended it to be anyway.
Now I just need to find some S14 kit.
My thoughts are based more on spending the least until a solution is found. I was looking at an '04 Ford 4.6 yesterday the COPs on that looked quite good. I'm not sure that the RWD SR20 and FWD SR20 have the same distance from rocker to spark plug.
No way... That's just ridiculous if the RWD and FWD SR20s are that different.
Do you have access to a RWD SR20 that you could measure the distance from the plug seat to the valve cover seat?
I can compare it to mine and see if it'll work.
I was going to go COP anyway, and I have the money, so I don't see a reason I shouldn't do it. I'm pretty sure the spark issue with VEMS was just my insane negligence securing the ECU connector properly. I do still have problems with my outputs, mainly the P259 channels, but possibly INJFET channel 4 as well (it won't control my idle valve), but that's not going to be affected by swapping to COP.
Edit: I can always ask the guys at www.sr20forum.com if the COPs will fit. They'll know.
My COPs are at the engine builders, and he's not around to measure them.
The heads are different in that they have the distributor so the rocker cover is not designed for COPs rather for the HT plugs, I think the FWD is the same as the Pulsar which has slight changes all over the place - like solid lash adjusters rather than the hydraulic rubbish that the RWD has.
Its not so much about the money, for me its always been about seeing what's available and trying different configurations.
You can force the INJFET channel by deselecting it from the idle control, and using it on the WOT/RPM actuator so that you should hear the solenoid click - or better use a voltage meter - when the throttle is pressed.
As for the P259, its a very low current device so its possible that its not with us any more :( Not too much of a problem as theres lots of other channels to choose from.
Is there a common point of failure for the P259 channels? Maybe a fuse, or a resistor or something that tends to go? I can open up VEMS and try to locate/replace it. I'd prefer to get them back. No doubt it was some crappy grounding that ruined them back when the cable was loose. =/
What goes is the p259 itself, and what usually happens is it blows when EC36-pin26 is connected when the other grounds are not, or when the other grounds are connected and EC36-pin26 are not. The reason for this is that we keep the low current grounds seperate from the high current grounds so that an external connection allows the rise in ground voltage to average out across both circuits, if the connection isnt right the high current side will ground through the P259.
When this happens the chip blows and pulls the voltage supply to the VR sensor chip down - which is why I was asking if you were getting an RPM reading - but I forgot that the Hall inputs are not effected by the death of the P259.
The P259 can be replaced, but its a surface mount component so it requires some smooth skills with an iron, the first one I did had me binning the PCB, so now I use the smallest side cutters I could find (trust me they're uber small), cut the pins so the chip comes free (some people use a razor blade to saw through the pins), then desoldering the pins. I have replaced the chip, but with a 4 cylinder I dont bother, I use the FETs and IGBTs to drive the relays and solenoids. For fuel pump and fan relays you have the possability of using the steppers, in fact any solenoid that draws less than 1Amp can use them.
So I'll still have enough outputs to take care of a boost controller, and possibly one or two other components?
Yes, loads of the things! I prefer to use FETs and IGBTs first because their current handling abilities are so substancial, then the stepper outputs as they'll handle 1amp and have internal flyback.
The consensus is that the RWD COPs are not a direct fit. Apparently a bunch of guys are having success in California running the COPs from the Honda CBR 600 motorcycle. I've found a good set with pigtails on eBay that I'll be purchasing. It should be around $75 USD shipped.
The auction for the COPs ended last night. They sold for $29 shipped to some other guy because Dan's wireless internet sucks. Lesson strengthened: don't try to bid snipe on eBay with a crap connection. There's another for sale in 3 days I'll jump on. More time without the car. =/
On the bright side, Dan's car is running well. See his thread (http://www.vemssupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,248.0.html) for updates.
Get down to the scrap yard and get an EDIS-4 coil pack off a 4 cylinder Ford engine, that will have you running wasted spark which will be a good stop-gap until you can get the COPs you want :D
Rob
Good idea. I'll give that a try.
How would it be wired, and what ignition settings should I use?
I assume it's pretty straight forward.
EDIS-4 wiring is pretty well documented across the web, give it a google for the pin outs (I dont use the Ford ones myself otherwise I'd tell you from memory!)
You group the two cylinders that come to TDC at the same time so if your firing order is 1, 3, 4, 2. You have 1&4 using one coil, 2&3 using the other.
Ignition outs are 1..0 and you could use Coil00 and Coil01
I do remember the Ford EDIS coil needs a dwell/charge time of 3.8ms (why do I remember crap like that, I don't remember people's birthdays), add 1 to 2ms for the 6V value.
I got the COPs in the mail today. We've installed them and tried again to set the timing correctly. We seemed to be able to get sort of close, but we just can't seem to get the value of 'TDC after the trigger' between 40 and 60. We tried different values for 'Trigger Tooth' but we don't seem to be getting to where we need to be. Can 'Next Trigger Tooth' be changed from 6? Can we put it at 12 maybe?
Perhaps if you'd be so kind as to explain how these values work in a coil-type trigger. I've read Chapter 9. Sensors (http://ttp://www.vems.hu/manual/html/ch09.html#Detailed.Sensor.RPM) and it seems to be very good for missing toothed wheel information, but I just can't seem to wrap my head around how my trigger works, and how the 'Trigger Tooth' and 'Next Trigger Tooth' values correspond.
There's some good news though.
TDC after the trigger: 14
Trigger Tooth: 0
Next Trigger Tooth: 6
This gets me to 0 degrees BTDC, and when I put 10 degrees for Cranking Advance, the timing advances 10 degrees. This is a first I believe, or the first time this has worked in a long time. Usually adding cranking advance has had no effect on the timing.
Still, I believe we are in a bit of a rut. I'd like to get this worked out, as the car won't seem to start anymore. It may not be related to this, but I thought we should get this right first.
Okay, so if cylinder 1 is at TDC 14 degrees after the trigger then we need to start looking at the next cylinder in the sequence - set trigger tooth to 2 and start timing the TDC value.
Did you try moving the disk round the other direction? That will give a different trigger geometry.
Quote from: [email protected] on October 25, 2007, 02:20:08 PMDid you try moving the disk round the other direction? That will give a different trigger geometry.
We were going to do that today. We'd stopped because it was raining, we were frustrated, and it was late. We'll try both suggestions.
Dan and I are going out again tonight to try to figure this out. I know Rob, that you understand what you're getting on about, but it's agonizingly painful to try to read into your instructions when you leave so many things out (you seem to assume I know what you know, which if that were true, I wouldn't be asking), and fail to answer the (mostly) simple questions I'm asking. I'm not saying I'm not infinitely grateful for the help you've given, I just feel this whole process would go much faster, and would involve much less of your time and effort if you'd take another second or two to actually answer the questions I've posed. It's nice to get advice, but a lot of the time I have a problem, post the problem, and then ask questions about it. I'm trying to gain the information it will take to solve the problem. The advice is good, but if it doesn't work, we're at square one again, where-as if you'd answered the questions too I'd have 30 or 40 other things I could try in a night before coming back with more information. If there is a website where my questions are answered, by all means just point me the way.
If you feel it a waste of time to flesh out your explanations, think of it this way: if you can get me up to speed to the point where I understand what's going on, with my Nissan at least, I can help your work load on the forums quite a bit by answering other people's questions. I'm the helping type. I will do it, I could teach others too. I see how much time and effort you put into this alone. This may be a way to help ease that. This is what forums are for, after all.
I understand how the trigger system works with a missing tooth wheel. How does it work with a wheel like mine?
How does it decide which of the 24 holes to use for TDC when it can't possibly distinguish between them?
What does 'Trigger Tooth' mean in my context?
What does 'Next Trigger Tooth' mean in my context?
Does it make any sense to change the 'Next Trigger Tooth' value to something other than 6? (I've tried and got interesting, possibly helpful results, but I don't know if they are red herrings or not.)
The last instructions you gave were to try flipping the disk, which we plan on doing first. You also mentioned we may
Quote from: [email protected] on October 25, 2007, 02:20:08 PMneed to start looking at the next cylinder in the sequence - set trigger tooth to 2 and start timing the TDC value.
My firing order is 1-3-4-2, so you want me to put the timing light on cylinder 3, change the 'Trigger Tooth' value to 2, and try again to time to TDC? This was my parsing of your directions. Dan seems to think you can't possibly mean what I think you mean.
We'll have more information when we get back from working on the car, but our hopes aren't high.
We've managed to get timing working pretty well (minor fluctuations, but we're attributing that to timing chain slop). We had to unbolt the distributor and turn it to an extreme angle (much more than normally available).
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/681793.jpg)
It seems the CAS disk is just not designed to work with the FWD set-up. Flipping the disc only gives a couple degrees difference.
We have spark timing working as well as we can hope for right now I think. A permanent solution will have to be found, but for now I'd just like the car to run. It sputters and can rev if throttle is applied, but it seems we're only firing on a couple cylinders. I'm pretty sure our injector output order is fine:
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/681791.jpg)
And I think our Ignition outputs are fine:
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/681790.jpg)
But we really can't find any documentation on the h[1] reference tooth table. When we change the order in this table, we get either just cranking, cranking and popping/sputtering, or cranking and almost idling but very rough.
What should we have for this table?
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/681792.jpg)
The H1 table is a tricky one to describe and we're still kind of working on it, the values are degrees of trigger seperation, and the ones I supplied will be correct for the trigger you have. I derived my h[1] table using the setup described here:
http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=MembersPage%2FFero%2FSUPRA
What I'm trying to say about the triggering can be seen in the H[2] table, if you rotate the numbers from 0, 1, 2, 3 to 3, 0, 1, 2 you can get sensible timing figures with the CAS in is 'normal' position.
Worked on the car the other night. I'll give the short story. Transposing the ignition outputs gave great results, advancing the timing terrifically. The distributor could be placed in a normal spot, and
Trigger Tooth: 3
and
Next Trigger Tooth: 6
are in use. Timing is behaving a lot better now, and seems to be fine now.
The car started and ran a little bit (timing light said it was idling at 40 degrees BTDC, when distributor was turned to retard timing to 20 BTDC the idle got very rough). It seemed my car liked 40 degrees BTDC which I know is wrong. We put the timing at 15 degrees BTDC for cranking and the car wouldn't start anymore. We advanced timing to 40 degrees BTDC and it wouldn't start. I'm pretty sure we just flooded the crap out of it, so I'm gunna give it another go soon. Stay tuned for updates.
Nice 8)
I skipped class today because I thought I was getting somewhere with the car.
Milling things over lunch, Dan and I recalled that when the car did run that one time we noticed spark during cranking at twice the rate we normally see. When we changed the settings back to the preferred settings, we get slow spark again. Wanting to work with a running car tonight, we transposed the ignition outputs one more time (which we did the last time) and just let the car be at 40 degrees advance where it seems to like things. The car started up and would idle pretty well. We slid the distributor around to see where the engine liked it to be, and it seemed to prefer 40 degrees BTDC give or take at idle.
So right now the ignition outputs are:
0 -> 1 (pin xx)
1 -> 0 (pin xx)
2 -> 3 (pin xx)
3 -> 2 (pin xx)
Trigger settings are:
Trigger Tooth: 4
Next Trigger Tooth: 6
We figure the timing readings have to be wrong, but we go ahead and get the tach and fuel pump working on injector channels. We tried to get the radiator fan and idle control to work on the injector channels as well, with no luck.
After the car warmed up, we turned it off, and tried to start it again with very minimal luck. We tried messing with the cranking enrichments, but that didn't get us very much. We left the car flooded, and went to do school work.
We're running into a new problem, as all this has completely killed my starter motor. It makes a high pitched howl more and more often, and when it does, the engine cranks very, very slowly. I'm pretty sure I'm looking at a new starter motor (this one is a factory Nissan unit, only 3 years old) which is extremely annoying, but what ever. It just makes it even harder now to work on the car when we can't even rely on it to work correctly when we want it to.
I'm wondering how this timing situation can occur. We're using an inductive pick-up timing light on the negative side of plug 1. Should we be able to time this way? We've tried putting a wire between the coil and the plug on cylinder 1 to give the pick-up the correct signal at the correct time, but we didn't notice a change. We want to try it again to make sure.
I'm really tired of all this. I feel my car should have been running/working properly a long, long time ago. I'm so close, I know it. But now I have a starter replacement in my future.
Damnit.
Sorry for the rant. I just needed to vent. =/
I have a new factory re-man' Nissan starter on the way. $200 USD after core return.
...
=(
Apparently I know what I'm going on about and I adjusted his setting some and the car starts right up. Next up we are going to time the cop set up properly. I'm thinking of shoving a wire into coil and connect the other end onto the plug and use that wire for the inductive pick-up. Hopefully we will be tuning soon.
Yah so, apparently you can't time COPs without cheating a little. Timing the negative return line just doesn't cut it. After finding a way to time correctly, we've found that we're not 40 degrees BTDC, we're spot on 15 degree BTDC during idle. Timing COP problem solved.
And hey, the car idles.
Let's take it for a ride.
Oh, what's that? No power?
Hey, what's that smell? Burning shift linkage bushings? You guessed right!
Hmmm, maybe we should take the car back home and check things out.
Billows of smoke coming from above the catalytic converter sound fun, but really aren't.
Let's pull the plugs and see what's up. Yes, yes, cylinders 2 and 3 plugs look brand new! Let's check the firing order. Yep, it's 1-2-4-3. That's all wrong. It should be 1-3-4-2, right? That's what it says on the distributor...
1-2-4-3 needs to turn into:
1-3-4-2
Let's swap the output after cylinder 1 with the output after cylinder 4 and we should be on our way!
0 -> 1 (pin xx)
1 -> 0 (pin xx)
2 -> 3 (pin xx)
3 -> 2 (pin xx)
turns into:
0 -> 3 (pin xx)
1 -> 0 (pin xx)
2 -> 1 (pin xx)
3 -> 2 (pin xx)
Let's check the firing order. Yep, spot on. 1-3-4-2. Let's rock and roll.
Oh, the car doesn't want to start now. Awesome. No luck at all. Switch the outputs back.
0 -> 1 (pin xx)
1 -> 0 (pin xx)
2 -> 3 (pin xx)
3 -> 2 (pin xx)
Just for kicks, let's switch the two we didn't touch before and see what happens.
0 -> 1 (pin xx)
1 -> 3 (pin xx)
2 -> 0 (pin xx)
3 -> 2 (pin xx)
Why try this? Because we're cah-ray-zeee! Start'r up Dan-o!
Oh, listen to that engine purr. Why is it purring? Who knows?!
Let's check the timing again with our trusty timing technique. 15 degrees BTDC. Check.
"Dan, when Rob hears about the output order we're using, he's not going to believe us."
Time to go inside and post on the VEMS forum.
*type* *type* *type* Hey Dan, these tables don't make any sense. Seriously. Wtf? I must have fucked up the wiring of the coils. Yep. I must have. *type* *type* *post picture of timing technique*
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/684444.jpg)
We took the car out to do some tuning. We've got some work ahead of us, but the car was driving very well tonight. We had some break-up at 4,400 rpms. We made sure we weren't running lean, and narrowed the problem down to ignition. We lowered the dwell time from 8.0 to 3.0 and the break-ups stopped.
Oh, and my shift linkage doesn't feel like molasses anymore. Hurray for self healing bushings!
Oh, and my starter doesn't seem to howl anymore. I think I'll cancel the order on the new starter and wait it out for a while.
Hurray for self healing starters? *shrug*
Yeah Ben timed his ignition by ear. We started the car up the other day (once it did start that is) and he turned the distributor untill it sounded right to him, happened to be exactly what it should have been as we found out tonight. Yeah and when Ben says we made sure it wasn't fuel he means he wouldn't tune it past .80 lambda. I ragged on him about it but I guess he didn't want to take the chance after not having his car for a month. Now we just need to get a timing table dialed in and start tuning the fuel. Also his idle control doesn't seem to work, but neither does mine and I manage, hopefully this will be sorted out later.
Well at least you're having fun with it! Engine management is as pleasant as self-harming but leaves less visible scars ;D
When timing COPs you need a short HT lead with a plug cap on one end and a connector on the other.
Idle controllers are fun, is it actually getting driven or is it that its getting driven but its not controlling the idle?
When you start off PID tuning you can set I and D to zero and mess with P to get a responsive system but with out the I&D factors it will cause the RPM to fluctuate, some people, dirty people that they are, then use the Ignition Based Idle control to damp out a badly tuned PID... One individual who will remain nameless decided against an IACV and has a 45degree spike in the bottom left hand corner of his map - when the car goes to stall it moves towards the advance spike which causes the engine to rev... It hunts like a bastard when its cold but it keeps the engine running!
The idle control valve isn't even being driven.
We'll be looking into it very soon.
Thanks for the advice on that, hopefully I won't have to resort to drastic idle measures. =]
I canceled the order for the new starter motor. We'll see how long mine behaves.
I wanted to get this posted before I go out tuning tonight.
I worked on idle control today, and narrowed down the problem pretty quickly to a specific part of the stock engine harness that did not have continuity. I'm so glad I'm back to dealing with things I know well. Needless to say, it was a quick fix once I narrowed down the offending section of harness. I was just about to run new wire when I took another look at the idle control valve connector:
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/685433.jpg)
I've never seen anything like that before. Dan is blaming it on copper eating worms. Sounds plausible to me. Anyway, I fixed that up and the idle started working. It needs some tuning itself, but the car is very drivable now (didn't idle as well as Dan's without idle control) so I'm a very happy camper.
I got the idle working a bit better. Not great, but good enough for now.
Dan and I went out and did some 3rd gear pulls, 2nd gear pulls, 1st to 2nd to 3rd races, and one massive, clutch smoking, 6,000 rpm failed launch (Dan forgot my clutch is towards the end of it's life). We got the car tuned pretty well under full load. Partial load still needs some work, but cruising out to the vacant road and back gives enough time to get cruising points tuned pretty well.
Nothing else to report really. Things are going really well. :)
After my launch Ben goes "No wonder you pull on me so hard in the beginning" ;D
All good news then! Part-throttle and transient tuning is the most difficult and time consuming stuff to get right.
I beg to differ. That stuff is a breeze compared to idle control, and maybe even cold start.
From my experiences so far anyway. =]
I've never really had much of an issue with cold start. And as for idle control I've often got away with setting my P value getting my I pretty close then shoving a large D number then using the ignition advance idle control to make things smooth.
Dan's managed to get his idle at 850 rpms, and very stable/reliable without using the PID control.
I've attempted a similar feat with less success. Part of my problem is that Nissan put three idle controls on my engine. One is constant, controlled by a screw that you set. The other is used to increase cold idle speed, which is a bi-metal device that slowly closes as the two strips of metal warm at different speeds due to the engine heat and constant electrical supply. Then there is the computer controlled idle solenoid that I get to control.
I feel I'm very close to having a great idle. It's okay right now, and does very well at warm temps. Cold idle right now is a mixed bag. My other problem is that my headlights like to drop the idle 150 rpm or so. So when I set things correctly with them off and then I turn them on, it bogs. When I set things correctly with them on, it tends to race a bit when I turn them off.
I know there is a sweet spot somewhere, I just have to find it. It involves getting that screw into a position where it works with the solenoid control, not against it.
I've changed my fuel cut values in Basic Settings to 1300 and fuel resume at 1000. My thinking was that I'd set the idle really high, but just cut fuel above a certain rpm. This worked a bit, but produced an idle that would surge and then dip heavily. So after fiddling for a while I came up with those values above that seem to help idle. They also make the car work much more like factory. With fuel cut set at 3,000 rpms, I'd cruise at 2,500 rpms and then let off the throttle and the idle control would kit in, keeping the engine from dropping rpms as quickly as I'm used to.
All in all my idle is all right. I just need to do some more tuning. If it comes down to it and I can't get it to work as well as I'd like, I'll give the PID control another honest try.
Oh, and the part in Idle Settings where you can set cold idle, and warm idle by rpm must be a joke, right? I mean, yes, changing those values can have an affect on idle speed, but really it doesn't seem to have a clue as to what to do. The only way I can set idle speed right now is with the PWM table. Are these rpm values only in use with PID control? If so, why do they affect my idle with PID disabled? And why is it so bad at it?
Those cold and hot idle speeds are targets, you wont hit those targets without getting the PID spot on.
If you enable the ignition based idle control it will attempt to run the engine at those RPMs
Nice project going on Ben.
HereÃ,´s a log i did take today, no PID control..
And you mean thatÃ,´s impossible.?? Cold idle is 1100.
(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee104/Tcal95/start.jpg)
Tcal, do you have a link to your car so I can get an idea of what you're working with?
I'm not saying a good idle is impossible, I'm just saying I'm having quite the bit of trouble with it. =]
Ben, iÃ,´ve been thinking to show my own project here,i think itÃ,´s coming in the future..
My car is 2.0 16 valve turbocharged Opel Calibra. I use it as my daily driver.
IÃ,´m having same kind of issues with that idle too. Worst scenario is when IAT is near +50c and that big fan is on with other electrical equipment.
Then idle drops to 600-700 rpm. That PID is probably the answer to that...
Yah, it just very well may be.
Mine's a daily as well. =]
I just noticed Rob was posting on someone else's question about their idle valve solenoid audibly clicking. His solution was to put the idle valve frequency at 0 to stop the clicking.
Dan Martin and I both had clicking idle valves (initial values were 3 and 255 for his car and mine respectively). We noticed when we put the value at 0 the clicking went away but we thought that's because we'd effectively stopped it from working at all. I found out on my own that the clicking went away with a value of 64, and then Dan suggested 128 which worked as well. Right now we are both running with 128 as our value. Dan's is a stock Ford Mustang 5.0 idle control valve, and mine is a stock Nissan SR20DE idle valve. Will we see any benefit from moving that value to 0? Maybe 128 is better, and should be suggested to others with clicking valves?
Edit: Also, may I suggest a dedicated section for idle control in the "VEMS" section of the message boards? It would be nice to have I think, and allow the centralization of idle control discussion as it seems to be a big enough point to warrant it's own section. I've been trying to use the different sections of the forums for discussion, and I think this would help.
EDIT Nov, 28 2007: Idle Valve Frequency should be put at 0 if you have a clicking idle solenoid. Values 0, 64, 128 and 192 all stop the clicking, and produce the same results, so you should just put the value at 0. The idle valve clicking seems to be very common, so this solution is floating around the forums.
Dan and I went out the other night to do some more benchmarking.
We had three cars that were the same exact speed before we started our VEMS projects. The cars are:
Car Modifications Owner
1987 BMW 325is Stock Dan Martin
93 octane
170 lbs. ballast (passenger)
1994 Nissan Sentra SE-R Short ram intake Ben Fenner
Base ignition timing advanced 4 degrees
93 octane
170 lbs. ballast (passenger)
1994 Nissan Sentra SE-R Stock Dan Fenner
87 octane
Now we can use my brother's SE-R to benchmark our cars, and see how our WOT tuning is going.
The verdict is in, and I pull well enough on my brother's car. It's to the point where I think only very minor modifications to the air/fuel ratio will take place, if any. I have a video of the run I may post, but it's very dark (of course) so we'll see if I get around to it.
Check Dan's thread (http://www.vems.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=248.45) for his results.
Still working on idle and cold start. Idle is pretty good, and I'm getting the hang of how it works. I think I'm very close, and I'll post results once I feel I have numbers that I'd recommend.
Cold start is another issue. I'm starting to feel that upping or lowering the fuel amount is not enough. I think I just need more of everything, air as well as fuel. So I'm going to try opening the idle control much more when the car is cold, and see how that pans out. I certainly have many things I can try, so I'm not hitting a brick wall.
Stay tuned.
That Cold start tuning gets much easier if you heat up that O2 sensor before starting..
Go to terminal program, Type Manmde02, that commands O2 to heat. When heated, turn datalogging on and start.
Remember, if you heated that lambda manually then it wont activate closed loop before restarting vems.
Remember to type byebye in the terminal program after the mde02 command or MegaTune wont connect afterwards.
Rob
What if I just hold the key in the on position for 60 seconds to warm the o2 sensor up, then try to start the car? Will that produce the same results, and allow the car to go into closed loop mode?
The ecu doesnt drive the wideband until the engine starts to turn, from that point you have about 60seconds of sensor warm-up time so you need to set the Warmup time value in Settings->EGO Control screen, then set the Min temperature value accordingly.
Rob
I have idle good enough to where I won't be messing with it until I solve other problems.
I think I have cold start mostly taken care of. I had to up the idle at cranking to give more air, and upped the fuel during cold cranking as well. It's hard to get it any better with my starter the way it is, so I've gone and put in the order for a new starter again. We'll see if I end up needing a new battery too. =/
I'm also getting a random misfire at higher rpms. It happens infrequently, and I haven't found any way to reproduce it consistently, so I'm working on that as well. I've lowered my coil dwell time from 3.0 to 2.0, and now it's at 1.5 and it's still happening. We'll see.
About that random misfire at higher rpms...
It turns out I had wires in the engine bay I never really took care of, and they were grounding out causing the misfire. So, that problem is solved.
Things are looking up. We'll see how cold start works with the new starter.
I still have some VE table tuning to do, but once that's done I'll be posting my tables and settings for other people to use if they have a similar set-up.
Also the benchmark races I mentioned earlier should go up. And more pictures will be put in my previous posts to flesh them out.
I know I've said this before, but I don't foresee any more problems as long as I'm N/A. Once I go turbo, we'll see. =]
I took delivery of an SR20DE last night which is going to be used as a stop-gap until my HUGELY delayed built engine is finished.
The engine came with a complete loom, ecu and distributor, so it struck me that I'm going to be able to use much the same setup as you've done here (unless I make a complete new loom for fun ;))
There are a ton of extra wires going to the distributor, [power transistor and that resistor] that can and should be eliminated. I didn't go into detail in my thread as the wiring kept changing, and it got pretty complicated. Once going COP it's all very simple. Good luck with that. You should have a lot less to deal with if your motor is RWD.
The big issue is finding the damned wiring info. The engine is from a 1997 180SX Type-S, which seems to be one of the great 'forgotten' cars because it was being built at the same time as the newer S14 200SXs but is the old shape S13 ???
You didnt use the igniter transistor then? Hmmm I was planning on using a stepper driver on that to start with, all depending on the CAS disk of course, the easiest course of action might just be to make a custom loom.
Rob
First you'll want to see which distributor you have. This being a RWD engine, I'm not sure what you'll get. I'll tell you what I had. On the 1994 engine I had a distributor with a CAS inside, but the "power transistor", "resistor" and igniter coil are external. The newer style of distributor has the "power transistor", "resistor" and igniter coil built in. You're going to want to find out which you have, and wire accordingly. It should be very easy to modify the stock harness to work with the distributor either way. You'll just need the correct wiring diagram. It's more than likely you'll have the new style of distributor, and you'll need the new wiring diagram, which I think you've actually posted on these forums at some point. =]
I guess, at the end of the day it doesn't matter what you do. I know for sure you don't need the power transistor or resistor at all to make the coil work with VEMS. Just let me know if I can help you with anything. Hopefully you'll have the CAS separate from the distributor, so you won't have to go to COP. That is unless that engine had COPs to begin with. But then why are we talking? =]
The distributor has the CAS, ignitor and it looks like the coil too!
I'll probably go to wasted spark coil packs and use the standard S14 CAS.
None of the new type schematics have a distributor on them :(
Only your ones do!
Rob
I could probably find the pin-outs or recall them from memory if you want to use the distributor. If it has the CAS built in though, I would jump straight to COPs. It might be possible to work it out otherwise on the RWD engine, but I don't think it's worth it when COPs are so cheap.
I'm 90% sure that I'm going to bin the entire loom and use a V3 harness, then I'll have an unmolested stock loom :D
Rob
I'm still trying to diagnose a couple things.
I have random break-up (no spark), which goes away when I push down on the COPs. I'm pretty sure I've got this problem figured out, and the solution.
Also, cold start is still being a bitch. When I get the new starter, this should be solved quickly.
Next is an LCD problem, which I won't get into here, as Rob doesn't recommend the LCDs.
I had a question about the tach though. Both Dan and my installations have exhibited this behavior at one time or another. Mine is more prevalent, as I turn VEMS on and off very often trying to start my car when it's cold. Sometimes when I try to start my car and it fails to start I'll leave the key in the on position, and the tachometer on my dash will jump to a random position sometimes pegging the gauge. The tach needle will stay at that specific number until I hear stop hearing electrical buzzing (I'm pretty sure it's the fuel pump shutting off). What do you have to say about this Rob? I've sort of been worried about what electrical damage might be caused by this, or what this might be a symptom of.
Quote from: BenFenner on November 16, 2007, 04:45:16 AM
I'm still trying to diagnose a couple things.
I have random break-up (no spark), which goes away when I push down on the COPs. I'm pretty sure I've got this problem figured out, and the solution.
Also, cold start is still being a bitch. When I get the new starter, this should be solved quickly.
Next is an LCD problem, which I won't get into here, as Rob doesn't recommend the LCDs.
I had a question about the tach though. Both Dan and my installations have exhibited this behavior at one time or another. Mine is more prevalent, as I turn VEMS on and off very often trying to start my car when it's cold. Sometimes when I try to start my car and it fails to start I'll leave the key in the on position, and the tachometer on my dash will jump to a random position sometimes pegging the gauge. The tach needle will stay at that specific number until I hear stop hearing electrical buzzing (I'm pretty sure it's the fuel pump shutting off). What do you have to say about this Rob? I've sort of been worried about what electrical damage might be caused by this, or what this might be a symptom of.
Cold start is a pain to do as you only get one chance a day to make changes.
As for the tacho doing that... I've never come across that on a Hall trigger setup - with VR on unshielded cables I've seen ignition events cause that sort of behaviour, where is the buzzing coming from?
I'm pretty sure the buzzing is the fuel pump.
So when the fuel pump is on the tacho goes mad? I've had a problem where the fuel pump primes, sets up some sort of a ground loop which holds the ECU on, but nothing like that.
Thing is, that if the ECU thinks its reading a crank trigger it will turn the pump on and fire the ignition. If thats the case you'll have to check for noise on the trigger wires.
The sheild is only grounded at one end isnt it? (Yeah I know its a n00b question, but its tricky to even know where to start with noise)
Engine block is well grounded?
Can you get a timing light on a coil and see if you cant force the trigger - I'll be interested to see if the coils are sparking.
Rob
I'm not sure about the shield ground. How ever it comes factory. I'll have to check.
The engine block is well grounded.
How would I force the trigger when I have the timing light on a coil?
Quote from: BenFenner on October 26, 2007, 05:50:57 AM
We've managed to get timing working pretty well (minor fluctuations, but we're attributing that to timing chain slop). We had to unbolt the distributor and turn it to an extreme angle (much more than normally available).
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/681793.jpg)
That is the CAS I have, just stripped it down - and guess what? The screw wouldnt shift and gnarled up pretty nastily!
I've found some nice COPs in my collection and will basically end up doing the same as you've done there, got these nice little Toyota ones with built-in igniters 8)
Can you give me your CAS wiring info? Cheers
Rob
This is the best you get from me right now:
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/695292.jpg)
I'll get the multimeter out and test the leads later (tomorrow) and tell you what is what. As far as the other plug goes that is not in the picture: it is coil related and not used either. Enjoy the pink!
the two lines with the quick disconnects are the cas signal wires. On the far right is the ground and the second from the left is 12V.
Also, Ben I will try to grab some coax from the power electronics lab and we can strip it down and use the shielding and ground it off and see if it helps. I really want to make a new harness, but then again im c - r - a - z -y!
Dan, your avatar needs to be bigger.
Also, thanks for the info. I remember the wiring order now. Hilarious how you know it better.
Uhh... We'll see about that shielding... I had break-up today like woah. I thought my spark plugs were getting much worse until I remembered we went back to the short dwell time. I really need new plugs.
Excellent, thanks for that! I was going to be able to find the CAS signals by probing the ECU connector, but you only get once chance to get the power + & - round the wrong way! ;D
I'm still tempted to use that coil you know, just to see how its charge times relate to the COPs.
There is almost no tuning information about the DEs in the UK because they're not as common as the DETs and if you want power you use the turbo.
But... If I run a turbo in MSA competitions I'm a man stuck in a category with Mitsubishi Evos, Subarus and specialist track cars, so I will loose massively. If I can get this engine to kick out some power I'm in the Modified Production Saloon car category with NA 1400 to 2000cc engines, which means I still loose but by less of a margin ;D
As I understand it I should be able to fit GTiR throttle bodies to this head, and as it has the solid valve lash adjusters potentially rev the thing way past 8K, the guy who did the solid adjuster kit for my S14 SR20DET revs his engine to 9500 daily...
The GTi-R head has the solid valve lash adjusters in it's head, so you'd need one of those. Not sure if the ITBs mate up to any other head, other than the GTi-R.
The best place for that sort of question is at:
http://www.sr20forum.com/ (http://www.sr20forum.com/)
You can get any question you've ever dreamed of answered there. Also, there's an NA section where you'll find out just how much HP you can make NA. I believe there are some very serious numbers being put down. Also the guys with the variable valve timing SR motors (SR20VE) will give you something to dream about. =]
Quote from: BenFenner on November 20, 2007, 07:27:28 AM
Dan, your avatar needs to be bigger.
thats what she said :-\
She said no such thing.
...and where did you get a red display at???
Red LCDs were new when I was ordering a couple months back. I picked one up for Dan, as it matches his gauges better than the blue one.
A minor update on the break-up I've been having. I tried new spark plugs with no luck. It turned out I still had one bare wire floating around that I finally found. I've wrapped all the wires now, and it's looking a lot better. As for the car, it runs great now. I've still got some work to do with idle, and cold start but those are looking much better as well. The new starter will go in soon, and that should help even more. I finally got the old ECU out, and put VEMS in it's place. It's nice to not have VEMS and tons of wires in the foot well anymore. =]
Things are looking really great. The only nagging issue I'm having now is with the LCD.
Rob, what happens when the LCDs fail as you say they tend to do? What behavior have people described?
They start to show black blocks rather than characters, or they start dumping text on the screen.
Everything else seems to function fine though.
Yah, mine is dumping characters (usually numbers) in spots where they shouldn't be. It seems to happen most when the engine dips below 700 rpms for a second.
Anyway... It seems as though it's the VEMS component, and not the LCD itself that is messing up. I feel like it could be solved if all of the LCD blocks would update once in a while, or refresh instead of just the currently changing data. This would keep my screen clean, as it takes a bit of time to mess up, and when it does, all it would take is a refresh of that block to clear it up. Would this be something the developers would be interested in considering?
Also, does it get worse? Or is this as bad as it should get?
I think thats as bad as it gets - the answer is to look at the grounding and sheilding.
I think theres something in the LCD code that updates it, you might want to play with the values in Extras->LCD Settings
I was waiting until I was absolutely sure I'd fixed some problems before posting updates.
The cold start problem is fixed. Long story short: the injectors weren't firing on closed valves, they were firing all willy-nilly. Now they are firing at the same time as ignition, and it has made a HUGE difference. I have a little tweaking to do, but it starts up in the morning now without 10 minutes of cranking.
Changing the injectors to fire on the closed valves has messed with the left half of my VE table, so that's gone through a little change. Also, the warm-up enrichment needed work since the change. This was all expected. The idle is much more stable now too... Also a bonus.
Still working on the car, it's just been slow since I've been busy with the end of the school semester.
Rob, I still have to check into those LCD settings, but from my memory, I don't recall anything to control the updating of the LCD. =/
Good to hear that you're running, its one of those things that you'd see if you had access to a six gas analyser, but reading HCs is not something thats easy to do.
As for the LCD, its dnb that asked for the reset feature, I think he'll be the one to ask.
Cold start below 23C was a problem until I changing the injector firing timing. I thought all was well... Now cold start below 16C is a problem. Not nearly as bad as before, but it still takes a minute or two of cranking/resting to get the car to start in the morning. I'm still exploring fuel delivery and idle opening values, but I've seemed to hit a wall. Hearing stock cars fire right up every day in the morning is giving me much respect for the folks who design factory starting systems, and making me realize there's got to be something I'm missing.
I came to a revelation the other week when looking at the starting diagram that Rob made.
(http://www.vems.co.uk/VEMSUserManual/PrimingCrankingAfterstart.png)
I realized I had my cranking/afterstart threshold value set too low. I had the value set at 300 rpms so that once the car fired the values would change drastically because the rpms had passed the threshold. I thought that the control was designed to "catch" the firing condition, change values drastically to help the situation, and keep those values for a bit until...
The diagram doesn't show that at all. So, I put the value at 400, and now at 500 rpms. The car will crank then fire and still not get past 400 rpms. It will only get past the threshold now if it cranks, fires and catches. This is the way it's supposed to work I believe, and is why it only takes a minute or two to start in the morning instead of the 10-15 minutes it used to take.
Still, I'm musing about how to get this fixed. I know I'm close. It feels like maybe I'm firing fuel on two closed valves, and two open ones. Except... That can't be right...
On the LCD front, dnd has given me good info to follow to try to prevent the problem and I'll do that shortly, but it might be that the screen refresh option was only put into the x.0.x firmwares, and not the x.1.x that I'm running. =/
Quote from: BenFenner on December 31, 2007, 08:15:24 PM
The diagram doesn't show that at all. So, I put the value at 400, and now at 500 rpms. The car will crank then fire and still not get past 400 rpms. It will only get past the threshold now if it cranks, fires and catches. This is the way it's supposed to work I believe, and is why it only takes a minute or two to start in the morning instead of the 10-15 minutes it used to take.
So you've got your cranking PW sorted, now you need to look at what happens with the PW reading when the system transitions from cranking to running, thats your afterstart enrichment and then warm-up enrichments. I'm betting that its plenty rich for cranking, then drops too lean. Datalogs can help here
Yah, I've been using the realtime data display for a while now to make sure I know exactly what's going on with air and fuel. I don't remember exactly what's going on at the transition between cranking and afterstart, but does it matter? From what I can see, the car should have cranked (200 rpms), fired (400 rpms), and caught (800+ rpm spike) by the time afterstart comes into play. I'm having trouble getting over the 400 rpm point.
I've never had cranking threshold above 300 for anything other than a test - when you're below the cranking threshold you're also stuck at the fixed cranking advance.
I use the real-time data too - just carefully watching the PW needle drop from its cranking value down to its idle value effected by enrichment, you can normally see where the engine starts to lean misfire - if its right after the point of cranking, then the afterstart enrichment needs to be higher, if it tails off as afterstart enrichment tails off then its your warm-up enrichments...
So the threshold should be 300 rpms or so? I had it right the first time?
When the car starts, it starts like a champ and holds idle. Otherwise, it cranks and fires (rpms jump from 200 to 395 or so when it fires) but won't really "start". At first i thought this firing needed to be "caught" and helped out by either adding fuel, removing fuel, adding air, removing air, or a combination of fuel and air changes. This didn't seem to work for me, and raising the threshold to 500 rpms has helped cold start, so I thought I was on the right track. You're saying my first assumption was correct?
If so, what is the general idea behind the changes made after the threshold. So you want to add a bit of fuel, a lot of fuel? Take fuel away a little, or a lot? What should the idle control do? Add air, remove air?
I feel I just need a little schooling the the theory, and I should be able to get mine working.
The threshold is there to set the point below which we consider the engine to be turning on the starter motor. Once the engine fires the after start stuff comes into play - this is designed to "catch" the engine as extra fuel is added (AS Enrichment) and of course the ignition advance goes to that of the low load and RPM on the tables. You may find that the engine is not drawing much of a vacuum as it starts and that it reads mid-way up the kpa scale on the map and so you can perhaps add some ignition timing to accelerate the engine a little.
So mess with the AS enrichment and bear in mind the temperature that you're doing the start at AS is scaled in the usual -40degC to 77degC manner - are those days that it starts warmer than the days that it doesnt? Is it harder to start when warm? (The old school rules still apply - too rich = difficult to start when warm, too lean = difficult to start when cold).
That helps a lot. I was going about it most recently in the wrong way. So, once the engine fires, to catch it you typically want to add more fuel. Anything going on with the air? Should it get more or less?
Right now it starts extremely well at warm temps (50C or above) and takes more and more work to get it to start as it gets cold. I'll give it some more time and tell you how I'm doing soon.
Thanks.
The system adds more fuel, its all about the way it transitions from the super rich starting condition to the correct mix running conditions - its tricky to get your head round (how they did this with carbs I'll never know...)
And things need to get significantly richer as they get colder.
I understand that things need to be richer when it's colder... I just need to know, over-all, what happens during the transition between cranking and afterstart? Or, what should happen? As, I've gotten the system to do anything I've wanted it to. I've gotten it to take away fuel, add fuel, etc. I'm familiar with every value that is taken into account, and modified them to do either job.
What should be happening after that threshold is reached? Less fuel, or more fuel to "catch" the firing condition? Less air or more air to "catch" it?
I did a bunch of messing around with cold start this morning. I changed the cranking/afterstart threshold to 300 rpm and did a whole bunch of things. I concentrated on removing a bit of fuel after the threshold. Nothing seemed to work. Although, I found the values in the spark table that are used for starting, and they were stupidly low, so they went up with a positive effect on firing strength and frequency (but no help in "catching"). At the end of 30 minutes before work, I was forced to put the threshold back to 400 rpms so the car would start.
I even made it so after the threshold was reached nothing changed (simulating a higher threshold) and the car wouldn't start... That's very odd.
Anyway... Still musing and waiting on Rob's info as to what should really be happening.
I started replying to this last night and my machine decided that it was time to sleep midway through typing.
By putting your threshold at 400 it means that the PW and advance are held at those set for the cranking values.
The part about making the PWs produce the same values as at cranking is interesting, are you alternating injectors when cranking or batch firing?
Also take a close look at the idle control settings, theres some idle afterstart settings in there.
What should be happening is that the fuel amount should be reduced from the high levels required for the start to the lower levels required as the engine warms up and the charge sparks off easier.
I'm not alternating injectors, I'm firing "all banks". I changed this to "alternate" once and it seemed to only slow the rate at which the engine would fire.
Right now I have a -44C pulse width opening of 14 and a 71C opening of 2.5. With these values, and a warmup enrichment of 118 around the 0C areas, I get almost no change in fuel when the threshold is overcome. This is with an afterstart enrichment percentage of 65% at -44C and 5.9% at 71C. The afterstart enrichment value of 118 I know is close to what it should be, if not spot on. The 65% value seemed to be a default. Raising that or lowering it will change the fuel delivered during afterstart by a small margin. Bringing it down to 0% or up to 100% seems to be good enough to change fuel delivery enough to make a difference. In the realtime display the injector PW drops or raises after the threshold is breached accordingly depending on which value I've set. I've also gone and changed warmup enrichment to lower values to remove even more fuel if I felt like it... No amount of fuel removal seems to do any good. How much should I remove? Right now it cranks with 12.2 pw or something. Should it go down to 11 pw? Or a more drastic change to 8 pw or so?
I'm not using PID for idle control yet, so I'm using the cranking idle settings, and then it moves to the regular idle settings. I've messed with this as well, but what should it do? Stay the same opening the whole time? More air or less air after threshold?
When cranking you're firing all injectors at once, then when it catches the injectors fire sequentially, so you're getting a 1/4 of the fuel the moment you go from cranking to afterstart.
Quote from: BenFenner on December 31, 2007, 08:15:24 PM
It feels like maybe I'm firing fuel on two closed valves, and two open ones. Except... That can't be right...
I had a feeling I wasn't getting enough fuel during the transition... =]
Well... With this new knowledge, what would you suggest? I guess I need 4 times more fuel (you sure it's 1/4th and not 1/2?) during afterstart to just match the amount I'm getting during cranking, correct?
I'll make it give way more fuel after the threshold and see what happens... =]
Try even bigger values in those...
I have:
Crank cold PW 10.0
warm 2.9
Threshold 300
Crank adv 17
Added 160
Scaling 3.5
Duration 300
I have all injectors firing when starting...
And is Coil chargetime 6v in ignition settings set ok?
Quote from: Tcal on January 04, 2008, 08:14:28 PM
And is Coil chargetime 6v in ignition settings set ok?
I was told to put that value at 0.0 by Rob, and I think it forces 0.0 in my firmware anyway... So that's what's going on with that.
Thanks for the good info. I've got similar values to you except the Added and Scaling values. Yours are quite different.
Mine look like:
Crank cold PW 15.0
warm 2.5
Threshold 400 (for now to get it running)
Crank adv 19
Added 65
Scaling 5.9
Duration 700
I never really understood both of the values fully. I know changing the "Added" value will add or take away fuel during afterstart, but what does the "scaling" factor do, and what exactly does the "Added" value do?
Take a log where this problem appears, it would help a bit.
I would start off with setting cranking to alternate and increasing the cranking PW significantly so that you can get the car to start - that will give you the starting point for where you need to be. When you get it firing with the cranking PW I'm betting that you'll see a massive drop when the afterstart enrichment amount comes in.
Not sure why I'd have said that coil charge at 0 would be a good idea, although I have been up late some nights figuring it all out! ;)
Try setting it to 2.
I spent AGES on the first car I set up getting the cranking and afterstart sorted out, initially I had the cranking threshold at 1200rpm so that I could work out my various target Pulsewidths, which gave me an idea of what the engine required where.
Thanks for all the good help folks. I've got things to play with now. Hopefully I don't hit the pw cap (25.5 ms) before I get enough fuel to start this thing with alternating banks...
On a side note, anything above 24 seems to be misinterpreted by the ECU as 0.0 or similar (I found this out a while ago trying to give more fuel at some point).
I'll set 6v dwell time to 2.0 (v12 dwell time is set to 1.98 right now and ignition is working perfectly).
First attempt at getting cold start working with new settings failed (flooding I think). I gave it a few weeks and tried again.
I got the car to start just as well as it used to, but this time with cranking threshold at 300 rpms, and firing on alternating banks while cranking. I even got the car to start right up (once) this way while at 6C.
I've since worked with the 6v dwell time, and lowered the cranking timing advance to 15 (after taking a look at the AEM settings in DanMartin's SR20DET powered Sil-eighty). The car started right up this morning at 8C and I'm pretty sure I've got cold start licked.
I'll be tweaking things a bit, but it seems like I've got all of my drive-ability issues taken care of. I'll be posting settings of everything (VE table, spark table, idle, cold start, etc.) after I do a little bit more work on a few things. Sometimes I can't believe I've overcome all the hurdles I've ran into. I'm happy with my first stand-alone experience, and very glad I did it.
Cheers!
Nicely done Sir.
Don't let anyone tell you fitting a stand-alone is easy, especially on an engine thats not been done before.
If it was easy it wouldnt be worth doing 8)
Car was misbehaving when letting off the throttle (needs decel enrichment). Problem was visited and solved in the fuel section:
http://www.vemssupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,412.0.html (http://www.vemssupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,412.0.html)
Just got back from a 2,000 mile road trip. On the highway I averaged 33.5 mpg which is right in line with stock. I'm getting a bit less fuel efficiency than I used to around town (19 vs. 22 mpg), but I'm not too worried as the turbo install will change all that. It could also be due to the winter weather which causes longer warm-up times, meaning longer warm-up enrichment. I'll see how this changes as the summer comes.
The trip was free of major events as far as VEMS is concerned. The LCD display is getting worse (used to not corrupt on the highway, but messes up even then now) and since plugging my front audio amplifier in, I've got what seems like injector feedback causing popping in my audio speakers. I'm going to remove both horrible, analog (Jensen) 2-channel front and rear amps and replace with one, digital (Alpine) 4-channel in the rear which should solve the problem. I've got some grounding issues... Oh well. Not VEMS's fault.
Next up is either larger injectors/fuel pump, or clutch/pp/flywheel install. We'll see.
Look for screen caps of my VEMS settings soon, as they should be the current starting point for the USDM FWD SR20DE engine. One of the things I wanted to accomplish was a configuration that takes most of the guesswork out for anyone following in my footsteps. I'll make comments on most of the settings as well. It should make for good reading, and it should make obvious which settings I'm confident with, which I'm not, and which I still have questions about.
Cool, your configs and tables are your property but if you care to share them then they're the best way to make the settings available.
Yah, I'll make the config and table files available as well. Don't you worry.
I just like screen caps better for some reason (have had trouble loading configs in the past, yet entering values manually worked a charm).
I know I've been a ghost here for a while. I graduated from college (7 years of it for a 4 year degree) and I'm working on getting a place with my GF. The car work has kept going, but not so much on mine. My car has seen some suspension installs and some suspension problems, etc.
As for VEMS news; I got the car to a dyno and was able to do some meaningful tuning. Just in time too, as the warmer weather had brought on some detonation. It turned out I was about 6-8 degrees too advanced at WOT. Can't get blood from a stone they say, but I apparently was trying. ;)
So, the timing was brought back to reality. I was running leaner than I'd planned, so that was fixed as well. After working out the bugs, the 4th pull resulted in somewhat of a record for a stock SR20DE. Not official or anything, but it takes most people a cold air intake, headers, exhaust and in some cases mild cams to reach the output I've got.
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1542/774123.jpg)
That's 150 WHP and 129 WTQ if you missed it at the bottom. This is a mustang dyno as well; expect a dynojet to read 15 HP higher. I'm some 31 - 46 HP over stock with engine management as my only modification and I believe there's another 5 hp or so left on the table. The power delivery isn't as perfect as either of danmartin's cars but the two issues have been taken care of since the last dyno pull. A new pull should result in a beautiful curve. The first minor hump is a lean condition I've taken care of, and the tiny dip in the torque peak was detonation that I've taken care of as well.
Anyway, that's the news. Since the tune (the tables at least) are about perfect now, you can plan on seeing the tune posted up here soon.
Cheers.
Nice result.
I'll be very interested to see your ignition maps as my SR20DE is nearing completion (I'll update my thread accordingly) they wont be any use to me as I'll be using AlphaN but the ignition advance at WOT should be valuable.
I get to use my brother's car for comparison, as he's got the same exact car as mine, but completely stock.
Here's a video of my car (with VEMS) versus my brother's car (stock).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9b0_HRtBnpM
I've finished the WOT tuning and will be posting maps first, then the rest of the tune. Rob, look for that timing map very soon.
Here you go Rob:
Ignition map:
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/779442.jpg)
Target lambda map:
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/779448.jpg)
VE map:
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/779443.jpg)
Keep in mind the 70 kPa line on the lambda target table should read 0.94 across the entire map and the VE table should be changed accordingly (lower values). Right now the actual lambda values at 70 kPa are about 0.94 which is where they should be, but the maps are sort of mismatched if you know what I mean.
Edit: Looking at the 50 kPa line on that VE table makes me feel like I've left work to do. =/
Thanks - what was your req fuel value?
Req fuel is 12.5. Injector size is... *shrug* I'll have to look it up. Stock USDM SR20DE size.
Edit: 259 cc injectors
Cool, we have both got the same req_fuel then, my maps are going to be AlphaN, but even so - mine are waaaaay wrong at the moment.
New smoother VE map looks like this:
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1497/783648.jpg)
Okay it's been a long, long time since I've posted anything here. I've been doing a ton of mechanical upgrades and really haven't messed with the ECU side of the car in a while. I've messed with idle and cold start until I was blue in the face, but that's another story.
I still have my entire annotated N/A configuration that I'd like to post up at some point, and I still plan on that. I just need to finish annotating it.
For now, the car finally got the turbo installed. It got the EGT installed, and a new open element intake temp sensor to replace the closed element unit.
I put some safe timing and fueling values in the maps and tested the car out and hit the 110 kPa boost limit I had. Increased that to 160 kPa (wastegate is set at 150 kPa) and noticed that pulls in 3rd gear caused the computer to die. I lose tach signal, the LCD goes blank and the ECU disconnects from the laptop then restarts, reconnects to the laptop but I never get tach signal back. The car runs like crap until the ECU is reset by turning off the car, and turning it back on. This behavior started happening at idle shortly after that.
After more checking I found that I was getting boost creep over 160 kPa so I increased that limit to 180 kPa and then after seeing 178 kPa in the logs I brought it up to 186 kPa. I did this because while sometimes the ECU would die, other times the logs indicated what looked like a simple fuel cut.
I decided to replace my warm spark plugs with proper cold plugs, and gap them properly for the turbo setup.
After changing the spark plugs and adjusting the boost limit the situation has gotten better and better.
I took it out last night to do some actually tuning and managed to get a few runs in.
First pull in 3rd went well enough, some bogging but no ECU issues.
Increased timing quite a bit back to sane values trying to keep boost creep under control and EGTs down.
Did another pull in 3rd with less bogging and no ECU issues.
Confidence is high so we go for another pull. Before doing that the ECU crashes at idle.
We make the 3rd pull of the night and hit what feels to be a fuel cut, might have been ECU crash, can't remember. Check logs and highest pressure reached was 171kPa. One instant the logs look good and rpm is 6,000 something. Next log entry rpm is 3,000 something and everything else in the logs is still good. Next log entry everything is zero'd out.
We pack it up and drive home for the night.
The ECU dies/crashes maybe twice trying to park the car in the driveway.
Right now I'm on firmware 1.1.18 still. Is there something newer I should be on?
I'm tuning with the same version and configuration of MegaTune that I started with over a year ago. There is newer stuff I'd like to be using right? Where can I download that?
I'm going to disconnect the EGT probe from the ECU and continue diagnosing the problem.
Any other ideas? Sorry I haven't posted logs and such to go along with it. Let me know what you'd like to see or tests I should/could do and I'll get all over it.
I have a track session (my first!) coming up towards the end of March and I've been scrambling the last couple of months getting the car ready. I'd hate to not make it because of this. =(
Check that your dwell timing isn´t to much and isn´t becoming to much, and check your Vbatt.
As the dwell goes higher, vbatt may go down, that will cause more dwell, and then more the vbatt will go down.
Until you either fry a IGBT or the ecu/spark breaks up.
Happened to me when I was trying out 1.1.44 or something after upgrading from 1.0.79
There where new dwell comp calculations so that was messing with things for me. Changed it and revved easy from there on.
1.1.18 has been in service since god was a boy and at the moment I'd not see any reason to change it.
When you say that the ECU crashes does that mean you're you getting trigger errors? Or is there something else thats happening?
gunni, I currently have 3ms dwell at 6 volts and 2ms dwell at 14 volts. These settings have been fine for over a year N/A. I forgot to mention I tried 2.5ms and then 3ms dwell at 14 volts with no noticeable difference in this behavior.
From what I know (and that's not much) about these Honda CBR 600 coil packs, they are happy at 2ms dwell, at least for N/A, and they are capable to much more than twice the power I'm making.
I'm certainly up for suggestions. I haven't tried messing with the dwell with the new plugs I don't think. Should i try more dwell? Sounds like you want less dwell? I guess I should go look at my logs, but from what I remember dwell just stays rock steady at 2ms.
Rob, when I say the ECU dies, this is what happens.
The tach on my dash goes to 0.
The LCD screen goes dark.
The engine stops getting fuel and spark.
Every logged item goes to "0" if I'm logging.
This happens for a split second and then the ECU turns back on.
Sometimes the tach on my dash recovers, most times not.
Sometimes the wideband readings recover, most times not (have to wait 60 seconds for them to come back).
Sometimes the car will run well afterward without restarting the ECU, most times not.
I forgot to mention I went over my harness adapter and made sure no pins were loose, no wires were touching, everything is insulated very well and I tightened down the ECU plug very tight and put zip ties around the ends of it to hold it in as I've heard from Rob this can be a problem.
There is a possibility I harmed the engine harness while installing the oil feed line for the turbo and I'm going to look into this. But I'd love other ideas as I'm not hopeful on that.
it does seem that the thing is resetting - please datalog and see if its a trigger error or a reset
reset might suggest voltage drop out or short circuit.
I'll post up a log ASAP.
No log, sorry.
I took time to work on the car last night. Painted the exhaust and while I was under there I looked to see if anything was melted from when I installed the turbo oil feed line (it shorted with the starter and melted the braided steel, etc. and I had to replace that). While holding the hot line away from the starter wire, I thought maybe I melted part of the engine harness. Nope. All was fine back there.
The car was cooperating, so I took it out to tune some. Car started acting up again. In a last ditch effort to track down the problem, I unplugged the EGT probe since it was really the only thing about the set-up that had changed as far as the ECU is concerned.
The car cooperated all night after that.
I'm going to keep driving it this weekend and see how it goes, but I have high hopes. I'll report back later.
Hmmm, does the EGT still give proper readings? Can you try a dvm voltage reading between the block and the probe? Might need to run the engine and see if theres a problem at higher speeds.
The EGT was giving what looked like good readings, just maybe uncalibrated (never calibrated it).
I drove it around all day yesterday and tuned a bunch in the evening and it didn't skip a beat (EGT disconnected).
You want me to see the voltage between the engine block and what exactly? The metal probe, the braided shielding, one of the thermo coupler wires? While the EGT is connected to the ECU or disconnected?
The EGT probe and the block - I'm thinking perhaps the engine is finding a ground path down through the egt probe, the ECU might not like that...
Quote from: [email protected] on March 09, 2009, 01:47:58 AM
The EGT probe and the block - I'm thinking perhaps the engine is finding a ground path down through the egt probe, the ECU might not like that...
So you want me to take the EGT probe out of the exhaust manifold and check the voltage between the probe and the block while the probe is plugged into the ECU and the engine running? Maybe give it some revs, etc?
Gotcha.
Not sure if/when I'll get around to that. I've decided that losing the EGT measurements isn't a huge deal, and I have racing to do. I'm pretty sure you're right about the grounding thing. I'll let you know if I get the chance to check that out. For now I'm just excited to have the car working properly and boosted. =D
It will be great to see what sort of power you get with the boost.
If there is a ground path via the EGT probe you could do a load worse than sorting it properly and making up a grounding kit for your car - it will certainly help you clean up any noise issues, and the EGT would be more than a little helpful for wringing out every last drop of power from your engine.
When you say grounding kit, you mean a typical engine grounding kit? Because I have a home-made one. The engine grounds were missing on the car and the starter wouldn't turn because of it. Swapped starters before I realized what was going on. Ended up running a beefy ground where the stocker had failed, then added another to the rear of the engine. There's one on the exhaust from the factory by the catalytic converter that was sheared when I bought the car and never replaced. Maybe I should do that, but from my view I should have at least decent grounding... =/
I'm also excited to see what kind of numbers I get out of this thing. I have high hopes for it. Not numbers-wise but efficiency. I won't ever make any real power because the transmission is a weak link I don't plan on grenading any time soon. The T28 (Pulsar GTi-R) turbo is known good to 300-320 WHP or so at around 18 psi (224 kPa) on the ragged edge. I'm running an 8 psi (155 kPa) wastegate and seem to get boost creep up to 11 psi (175 kPa). Stupid free flowing downpipe is making the turbine look much more appealing than the wastegate. ;)
Most people make around 215 WHP or so with 11 psi. I know I'm making over 240 to the wheels, maybe a lot more. We'll see when I hit the dyno. =]
Then comes the progressive boost control. ;D
Quote from: BenFenner on March 09, 2009, 10:24:32 PM
When you say grounding kit, you mean a typical engine grounding kit? Because I have a home-made one. The engine grounds were missing on the car and the starter wouldn't turn because of it. Swapped starters before I realized what was going on. Ended up running a beefy ground where the stocker had failed, then added another to the rear of the engine. There's one on the exhaust from the factory by the catalytic converter that was sheared when I bought the car and never replaced. Maybe I should do that, but from my view I should have at least decent grounding... =/
The grounding kits all ground to a single point on the chassis, it would be good to ground the block, head, starter and alternator all to a single point, and if that single point is the same one that the ECU uses - theres a cluster in the middle of the firewall on the S14 I don't know if theres something similar on your chassis.
Okay, thanks for the help. I will add it to the list of minor details I'd like to iron out.
FYI my factory ECU grounds are at two bolts on the top of my intake manifold (as far as I know). Sorry for bad pic.
(http://www.supercars.net/gallery/132464/1542/853631.jpg)
Where do those grounding points connect to the chassis?
That is a very good question. I have no idea. I will check as I'm curious too, just never took the time to follow them. Also, will check to make sure they actually are the ECU grounds. They might go through a grommet in the firewall directly to the ECU? *shrug*