I had the car running on an old 3.2 ECU with dual mode C.O.P wasted spark for years. Just installing the new 3.6 box with cam sync and same trigger settings as before (for TDC, next tooth etc). Can't get it to run and don't know where to look.
firmware 1.2.20
Ignition sequence verified in test mode with 12v LED.
Should I be changing the trigger ref. tooth table?
Currently like this:
0 -0
7 -15
6 - 30
5 - 45
4 - 60
3 - 75
2 - 90
1 - 105
Thanks!
config:
http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=MembersPage%2FBenNesbitt%2FConfigPage
Should I be putting a solder blob on the board for cam sync or something?
Also, it seems like my stepper outputs are changed from v3.2 because idle and tach don't work anymore.
There seems to be a major problem in that when I upload the running, driving dualmode config from my 3.2 ECU running 1.2.2 and vemstune, the engine only pops through the intake (with starting fluid as a test) and never runs.
There must be internal wiring changes in the output of the 3.6 ECU, but I do not have access to the old output map of my 3.2 ECU. All copies are gone from the internet.
what is going on and who do I talk to about this issue?
Hello Ben,
Lets start with the basics, can you provide a triggerlog of engine cranking 8-10 seconds without IGN or INJ fuse so i can verify all triggers are correctly getting to your device ? We'll work from there
Best regards, Dave
Quote from: VEMS on July 23, 2015, 09:21:55 AM
Hello Ben,
Lets start with the basics, can you provide a triggerlog of engine cranking 8-10 seconds without IGN or INJ fuse so i can verify all triggers are correctly getting to your device ? We'll work from there
Best regards, Dave
Yes I have logs but no place to upload it at the moment.
We provide you space, make a sharing report from VT (Help->Vems sharing center) and place link here.
best regards, Dave
Well, I don't know if I did it right, but I managed to upload something here as an attachment:
http://vems.hu/vemstune/sharingcenter/reports.php?cmd=view&key=ID2tEj
Thanks!
Hello Ben,
Could you also attach your current ecu config (or even better a short vemslog of engine cranking) to the sharing report ? The triggerlog looks like it is from your current ecu, the vemslog and vemscfg in the report seem to be for an other ecu (perhaps your old).
But so far good needs from the initial review of your triggerlog, both primary and secondary trigger are in working order and ecu syncs properly to wheel, ignition timing however seems to be way off .. current config review will tell me more.
Best regards, Dave
Quote from: VEMS on July 23, 2015, 08:15:11 PM
Hello Ben,
Could you also attach your current ecu config (or even better a short vemslog of engine cranking) to the sharing report ? The triggerlog looks like it is from your current ecu, the vemslog and vemscfg in the report seem to be for an other ecu (perhaps your old).
But so far good needs from the initial review of your triggerlog, both primary and secondary trigger are in working order and ecu syncs properly to wheel, ignition timing however seems to be way off .. current config review will tell me more.
Best regards, Dave
Ok thanks I suspected ignition timing had chaged (perhaps 180 degrees ?!?!?!) due to changing from dual mode to full sequential. I'm a little fuzzy in the details, but it was the only thing nagging at me after triple checking everything else.
Ok I uploaded vlog and the config I'm running. Thanks for all of your help!!!
http://vems.hu/vemstune/sharingcenter/reports.php?cmd=view&key=ID2tEj
Quote from: VEMS on July 23, 2015, 08:15:11 PM
Hello Ben,
Could you also attach your current ecu config (or even better a short vemslog of engine cranking) to the sharing report ? The triggerlog looks like it is from your current ecu, the vemslog and vemscfg in the report seem to be for an other ecu (perhaps your old).
But so far good needs from the initial review of your triggerlog, both primary and secondary trigger are in working order and ecu syncs properly to wheel, ignition timing however seems to be way off .. current config review will tell me more.
Best regards, Dave
check your IAC settings, IAC PWM frequency is missing, ABZ IACV runs fine with 60Hz.
cranking VE is quite low comparing to your VE-table,
Good luck!
Hello Ben,
Quote from: smurfinator on July 23, 2015, 08:54:51 PM
Ok I uploaded vlog and the config I'm running. Thanks for all of your help!!!
http://vems.hu/vemstune/sharingcenter/reports.php?cmd=view&key=ID2tEj
Reviewed (and compared) your current config (BEN-N-21july-1.vemscfg) to the one you posted in your report earlier (v3.3_u004869.vemscfg) and almost everything is different.
I would suggest you start out by:
1) uploading the same firmware as was on your previous ecu (1.2.23 was on there you have 1.2.20 now) so upgrade to 1.2.23.
2) uploading your previous (working v3.3_u004869.vemscfg) config to the ecu.
3) setup (or at least check) the base calibrations of the sensors (e.g. map/mat and coolant temp seem to be off now might be okay after uploading previous config).
4) do some other verifications
before actually trying to start the engine, like calibrate (or check free-air calibration of) wideband sensor, tps calibration, if the pin output of the new ecu matches the old ecu (this step should actually have been done before anything else).
Please report on your findings and after completing these steps upload another vemslog and triggerlog of engine cranking 8-10 seconds without IGN or INJ fuse to your report so i can review.
Best regards, Dave
Hi, Dave I should have mentioned that the report page is not mine and that config in the report is not mine. None of the docs are mine except the uploaded attachments.
I could not figure out how to login or register there, but that page came up in a google search and let me upload attachments.
The config with my name in it has working TPS, pump and fan. The other stuff is suspect like idle solenoid because i don't seem to have any 7 amp outputs anymore. I don't know what happened with that. I just fixed the temperature scales, too.
Anyway, I'm at a loss as far as where the timing should be with the new configuration.
Thanks!
Quote from: VEMS on July 24, 2015, 09:18:24 AM
Hello Ben,
Quote from: smurfinator on July 23, 2015, 08:54:51 PM
Ok I uploaded vlog and the config I'm running. Thanks for all of your help!!!
http://vems.hu/vemstune/sharingcenter/reports.php?cmd=view&key=ID2tEj
Reviewed (and compared) your current config (BEN-N-21july-1.vemscfg) to the one you posted in your report earlier (v3.3_u004869.vemscfg) and almost everything is different.
I would suggest you start out by:
1) uploading the same firmware as was on your previous ecu (1.2.23 was on there you have 1.2.20 now) so upgrade to 1.2.23.
2) uploading your previous (working v3.3_u004869.vemscfg) config to the ecu.
3) setup (or at least check) the base calibrations of the sensors (e.g. map/mat and coolant temp seem to be off now might be okay after uploading previous config).
4) do some other verifications before actually trying to start the engine, like calibrate (or check free-air calibration of) wideband sensor, tps calibration, if the pin output of the new ecu matches the old ecu (this step should actually have been done before anything else).
Please report on your findings and after completing these steps upload another vemslog and triggerlog of engine cranking 8-10 seconds without IGN or INJ fuse to your report so i can review.
Best regards, Dave
Hello Ben,
Aha, very confusing indeed. Do you still have savefiles from your old ecu on your tuning laptop ? There should be plenty there as VT makes automatic save files for recovery later.
They are in "My Documents/VEMS_Files/ecuname_serialnumber/* or the backup subdir.
Please add these to a new sharing report, no login or password needed just use VT->Help->Sharing center and follow the steps. It will upload the files for you, create the report and provide you with the link to it.
After you have created this report with the requested files i will review; this to rule out any confusion in the future.
Best regards, Dave
I'm not trying very hard not to be a pain in the butt, here, but that link does not exist. There is no sharing center listed in the VT help section. It is not there. When I try to get in to the directory from google, it asks for a login.
My old config is a mess because the board was self-destructing as I tried to tune the car after PAINSTAKINGLY re-re-re-re-checking and re-re-building all of all of the wiring, which was fine in the first place. This is why I got a new board.
But all of the outputs were changed to the remaining ones until there were no more. So, don't worry about those. However, the ignition and running part still worked fine at the end :P. Just no other outputs except the tach worked until the end as well.
Anyway, there is no public way into the sharing directory that I can find on the help pages: http://www.vems.hu/vt/help/
Quote from: VEMS on July 24, 2015, 03:01:30 PM
Hello Ben,
Aha, very confusing indeed. Do you still have savefiles from your old ecu on your tuning laptop ? There should be plenty there as VT makes automatic save files for recovery later.
They are in "My Documents/VEMS_Files/ecuname_serialnumber/* or the backup subdir.
Please add these to a new sharing report, no login or password needed just use VT->Help->Sharing center and follow the steps. It will upload the files for you, create the report and provide you with the link to it.
After you have created this report with the requested files i will review; this to rule out any confusion in the future.
Best regards, Dave
here is what my crank trigger 60-2 wheel looks like:
Thanks again for all of your help!
(http://vems.hu/download/VemsTune/bugreports/attachments/ID2tEj/BENN-trigger.JPG)
Hello Ben,
Quote from: smurfinator on July 24, 2015, 04:15:00 PM
I'm not trying very hard not to be a pain in the butt, here, but that link does not exist. There is no sharing center listed in the VT help section. It is not there.
With VT i mean the VemsTune program :) So open the VemsTune program, go to Help->Sharing center (in the VemsTune program) and follow the steps.
Best regards, Dave
oh, lol Now you tell me. Cool feature! :-[ :-[ :-[
here is running old dualfire folder report :
http://vems.hu/vemstune/sharingcenter/reports.php?cmd=view&key=XXpDuM
Here is latest version of config:
http://vems.hu/vemstune/sharingcenter/reports.php?cmd=view&key=FJ1JL1
Thanks again!
Quote from: VEMS on July 24, 2015, 04:45:17 PM
Hello Ben,
Quote from: smurfinator on July 24, 2015, 04:15:00 PM
I'm not trying very hard not to be a pain in the butt, here, but that link does not exist. There is no sharing center listed in the VT help section. It is not there.
With VT i mean the VemsTune program :) So open the VemsTune program, go to Help->Sharing center (in the VemsTune program) and follow the steps.
Best regards, Dave
Hello Ben,
Quote from: smurfinator on July 24, 2015, 06:50:27 PM
Here is latest version of config:
http://vems.hu/vemstune/sharingcenter/reports.php?cmd=view&key=FJ1JL1
Nice, your latest sharing report of old and new makes sense now :)
Could you also include a trriggerlog and vemslog of engine cranking 8-10 seconds without IGN and INJ fuse you can attach it to your report i linked above in quote (no login or password needed)
Best regards, Dave
Done. Internet died while uploading the vemslog the first time so I uploaded a second in case it got corrupted. Also the jpg of the actual physical arrangement of my 60-2 wheel and sensor.
Thanks!
Ben
Quote from: VEMS on July 25, 2015, 11:25:28 AM
Hello Ben,
Quote from: smurfinator on July 24, 2015, 06:50:27 PM
Here is latest version of config:
http://vems.hu/vemstune/sharingcenter/reports.php?cmd=view&key=FJ1JL1
Nice, your latest sharing report of old and new makes sense now :)
Could you also include a trriggerlog and vemslog of engine cranking 8-10 seconds without IGN and INJ fuse you can attach it to your report i linked above in quote (no login or password needed)
Best regards, Dave
DAVE! Stop the presses! Hold the phone!
I just finally got the visual primary trigger widget to look like my actual physical trigger and the car started, but runs only on 4 cylinders and shows half RPM and it won't respond to throttle :P. It runs VERY smooth, however. Weird.
Tomorrow when I can open the garage and blast the neighbors with some V8 exhaust I'll see what the deal with that is and create a new report + trigger log etc. If I can't figure it out still.
Thanks again for all the help... I'm not out of the woods yet :\
Hello Ben,
Great news! Upload your new files to your current sharing report and i'll review, the latest added files (that i saw) were taken on 23-07 and of same filename as previously attached to other report, therefore must be old.
Make sure to check your engine timing with timing light on several cylinders (you will have to make a new mark of that cylinders TDC for each and force timing to zero using VT->Tools->Ignition lock = 0.25) to get a grasp of whats going on there.
Best regards, Dave
OK I uploaded my latest config and a vlog of the motor running and me blipping the throttle a bit. Still won't go over 1000 rpm much. Seems super lean at the moment so I raised my injector constsnt up to 22 from 15 temporarily until I can get a handle on the warmup and so forth. Man, this stuff was all perfect before the new ECU...
I think the tach works, tho. That's progress. Do you know what I should use to run the ISV? I don't know if I have 7 amp outputs on the new ECU.
Hello Ben,
I have reviewed your latests vemslog "v3.3_u009651-2015.07.27-08.40.22.vemslog".
Your engine is definitely running on all 8 cylinders, i suspect just some VE retuning is needed. If the new ecu differs in fly-back type from your old ecu than most likely it only needs to be offset (e.g. add a certain additive to whole VE table or correct dead-time, first method is preferred.) Have you already verified engine timing with timing light ? This step is imperative before anything else!
Best regards, Dave
Hi, yes I was able to verify that my engine timing was off but in the ballpark on #1 with a simple white bulb. I don't have a full setup for that. Anyway, I got it running much better. Turns out I had forgotten to config to the new 400kpa MAP sensor. Old one was 250. It was trying to run on no fuel, lol.
I have no way to know if the flyback is different. My old ECU (now in hu) was 8 years old and they did not send build sheets back then, plus it was a replacement of the first one that failed some injector output tests and that one was built 10 years ago.
But I didn't know that was an issue, so I will be prepared to shift the VE table. I had just gotten a new o2 sensor when the old ecu died so do I need to get another new one to recalibrate to the new ecu?
On the fine-tuning of the timing.... what is the best way to approach that? I mean, is it perfect if a legit timing light the TDC flywheel mark? Or should I be looking at logged parameters to tweak it?
Thanks!
Ben
Quote from: VEMS on July 27, 2015, 06:39:26 PM
Hello Ben,
I have reviewed your latests vemslog "v3.3_u009651-2015.07.27-08.40.22.vemslog".
Your engine is definitely running on all 8 cylinders, i suspect just some VE retuning is needed. If the new ecu differs in fly-back type from your old ecu than most likely it only needs to be offset (e.g. add a certain additive to whole VE table or correct dead-time, first method is preferred.) Have you already verified engine timing with timing light ? This step is imperative before anything else!
Best regards, Dave
Hello Ben,
Seems you corrected most issues already, good stuff!
After a second review of your config i found you have a tdc after the trigger configured which is outside of the recommended range, please correct this before checking the engine timing with the procedure i will outline below:
To correct these BAD settings: VemsTune->Base setup->Primary Trigger settings->Tdc after the trigger change from 28.0 to 64.0, triggertooth adjust from 7 to 1.
This will not alter your resulting engine timing, but will allow for proper operation of the management system, it cannot spark before the tdc after the trigger timing, so you are effectively limiting your timing to 28 deg BTDC now, not good!
I would definitely check your wideband free-air calibration, with your new ecu; It should be roughly the same as with your old ecu, but better be safe than sorry. Check it in free-air (sensor out of exhaust).
If your engine already has a TDC mark from the factory thats helpful but i would check it just to make sure, doing timing calibration on cyl#1 is perfect (when engine is already running smoothly as appears from your vemslog). I'll outline the procedure in a few steps to clarify:
1) take out the cyl number 1 coil and sparkplug
2) with a wrench turn the engine manually monitoring piston TDC position with a long screwdriver or rod-end in sparkplug hole.
3) when TDC for cyl number 1 is found make a timing mark on crankshaft pully and underlying metal/platic cap.
4) screw back sparkplug and fit a small ignition spark lead between your cop coil and the sparkplug (cutting an old distributor cable works well for this).
5) get a timing light (or borrow one) and connect it to your ignition lead (pickup arrow towards sparkplug).
6) start the engine and go to VemsTune->Tools->Ignition lock and enter 0.25 degrees there.
7) with timing light check if your mark lines up, if it does not adjust tdc after the trigger in VemsTune->Base setup->Primary trigger settings.
8 ) if timing mark lines up procedure is complete, burn settings to ecu and restart the engine, all should be well now.
9) have fun tuning it!
Best regards, Dave
Thanks again for all of the help. That major trigger shift was the kind of thing that was escaping me. The documentation is SO fragmented... It runs pretty well now and I can blip the throttle and it behaved normally! Engine cannot be turned over by hand due to radiator space issues and my idiot 60-2 wheel not having a big enough hole in the middle (wtf?!?!). Will have to get that fixed asap.
Now here is something I have discovered that is a major serious issue. My electric fan causes to ECU to go bonkers. No matter what I do to isolate it. If the fan is running and I switch on the ignition, I can hear all the injectors and spark plugs firing epilleptically. Also the tach jumps.
All of my grounds are done per phatbob and checked for security. This happens with the fan connected directly to chassis ground and alternator hot positive - no connection to the ECU at all.
Obviously, the car is not going anywhere until I fix this. Where do I start looking?
Thanks!
Ben