i have a 86 mercedes 2.3 16v cosworth and it has kjet injection that has a problem so have been reading up and i want to efi it i know roughly what needs doing (trigger injectors fuelrail) its the wiring and ecu part that i need to learn more about so i thought i would ask you guys for some help
i know i need air temp coolant temp throttle position sensors for a start but what other sensors will i need
this is my first post so i will not go into overload on my first outing
cheers
The vital sensor is the crank trigger sensor.
Next up is the air temperature and pressure sensor sensors are next. We tend to use a built-in sensor as its new, noise free and easy to connect. The air temperature sensor
This gives you the speed density (engine speed, air temp and pressure giving density) for fuel and ignition.
After that you get the sensors that do the enrichment sensors - Throttle position sensor and coolant temp sensor.
The throttle position is monitored for acceleration enrichment. The coolant is used to calculate the warm-up enrichment (choke).
Then we have the Wideband sensor which monitors the AFR its great for tuning and closed-loop feedback when running.
You also have the option of knock and EGT sensors but these are not of concern at the moment
for crank trigger i have been advised to use a honeywell gt101 hall sensor and 2 bolts set 180degrees apart as this is the most simple setup and the hall sensor does not pick up noise like vr ones
the air temp and pressure sensor is this 1 unit or 2 and where in the inlet would it/these be fitted
cheers
I've been on at my mate who's a machinist to make some of these:
(http://www.vems.co.uk/VEMSTrigger/twotooth.jpg)
(Although possibly with thicker teeth)
If we're going crank mounted then a 12-1 or some such would be good too.
Honeywell GT101's are good quality, cheap, and have the noise advantage that you've mentioned.
Air temp sensor is a single unit with a 14x1.5mm thread, the MAP sensor is built-in to the ECU (although there is an external sensor that we can use) and it requires a tube to be run from the plenum to the ECU
Richard,
something like that should do it:
(http://www.102983.org/gallery/albums/userpics/10003/normal_PIC_0001~13.JPG)
Looks like the Hall sensor in a bracket and two steel bolts. If you wand it simple and working, that's the way, I think.
(http://www.102983.org/gallery/albums/userpics/10003/normal_GT101.JPG)
Bracket should be strong!
Of course there are nicer looking solutions, like the one, Rob showed.
It depends on what you want.
BTW I own a 1984 190E 2.3-16 (look at my avatar) that will most probably get a VEMS during next(!) Winter (2008/2009).
So the old girl will have a strong heart for her 25th birthday. :)
regards,
Christian
cheers for the pics chris i have been sent the bottom one before on a different forum by the guy who did it as i couldnt understand what he meant with a description but as a trigger i think that is simply genius providing you get all your workings out right
rob i thought that map sensors were only used on turbo cars
If you're going to the trouble of making up all the bits for a crank sensor I'd personally at least attempt to get a missing tooth setup running so that you can run a coil pack or other form of direct ignition.
A MAP sensor is used with Normally Aspirated engines too, Speed Density (MAP, Air temp and RPM) is a much better fuelling method than AlphaN (Throttle position and RPM). As long as you're not running individual throttle bodies using MAP is trivial.
Rob,
AFAIK there is no problem to run a WS setup with this "2-tooth-trigger" - if you really want to toss the original distributor setup.
regards,
Christian
How do you know which tooth is cylinder1 BDC and which is cylinder 1 TDC?
Unless there is cam trigger, in which case this is an excellent trigger pattern.
Rob
yes, you are right.
Christian
i am going on what i have been told is the easiest option because i started out thinking along the lines of the 32-1 ford edis set up but was told that the 2 bolt was easiest way to do it
i was told turn between 40-90 degrees btdc mount sensor drill and fit bolt then fit other bolt 180 degrees away and that would give tia between 40-90
and the distribotor just puts out spark as there is nothing inside it needs removing
drill a hole in the dizzy cap at no1 and use a timing light
this is a shorter version of what i have been told works well on the mercedes but i am open to all possibilities as i am learning as i go
rob the map sensor in the ecu that needs a tube to the plenum and the external sensor mentioned do you need both or will either do
cheers
Quote from: richard s on January 09, 2008, 08:46:47 PM
i am going on what i have been told is the easiest option because i started out thinking along the lines of the 32-1 ford edis set up but was told that the 2 bolt was easiest way to do it
i was told turn between 40-90 degrees btdc mount sensor drill and fit bolt then fit other bolt 180 degrees away and that would give tia between 40-90
and the distribotor just puts out spark as there is nothing inside it needs removing
drill a hole in the dizzy cap at no1 and use a timing light
this is a shorter version of what i have been told works well on the mercedes but i am open to all possibilities as i am learning as i go
I am a great believer in "Perfect is the enemy of good enough" I'm just trying to work out what level of good enough to aim for ;)
I'll be talking to Jorgen this weekend and get the run down on what he reckons is the optimum setup.
done a bit of reading on the int/ext map sensor and i think i would prefer to run external map as i think a vacuum pipe running into the car would be easier to damage than one that is shorter and bolted to the inner wing/bulkhead etc so apart from the vacuum pipe how much wiring is involved and how easy is it to set up
also when reading i came across a section about trigger wheels etc and it mentioned the ford 36-1 not 32-1 it also mentioned 60-2 so what would be the better option of the two and do both run wasted spark also can both work off the gt101 sensor or do they have to use vr sensors
cheers
Richard,
sounds like you're telling from Jesper / Racing, looks like it's his setup, I posted the pictures of his work...
An additional question for the "best setup" would be: what's your goal?
Do you want the nicest technical solution?
The cleanest looking solution?
The easiest / cost minimized solution?
The answer will depend on your goal, I think.
It also depends on the shape of your current ignition system, if you need new wires, wire plugs, distributor cap, finger, maybe the distributor itself, I would install a WS system. If I could use most of the parts I already have (and I personally could reuse them from my car), I'd stick with the distributor setup to keep things simple.
Running vacuum tube into the car... you already have a vacuum tube running through the fire wall in your 2.3-16. Any problems with that so far?
regards,
Christian
it is racings set up
my goal is a car that ticks over at a reasonable level (unlike at the moment) and nice and drivable i dont care if it looks like frankenstiens ugly brother under the bonnet it just needs to drive nice
i would rather use the easiest option even if that is not always the cheapest
at the moment i do not really know the lay out of this car as all i have done is fit a downpipe/wings/backpanel and some welding car failed mot and i then put car on back garden and have not touched it for a couple of years as i got stuck as to why it would not tick over properly after i changed idle control valve then got married and then we had a baby then i bought a mk2 golf gti so spare time is a bit short at the mo but once i get enough info i can start stripping the car and will soon find out where things are
as for the vacuum tube what is this attached to at the moment
Richards,
height adjustment of the front lights as well as air distribution warm and cold are vacuum driven in the 190E.
There is a fuel consumption indicator in the instrument cluster, that in fact is an analog MAP meter. :)
regards,
Christian
I spoke to Jorgen about this, and all that has been said about the trigger is correct. This engine works extremely well with batch injection, you can set it to fire sequentially for fine fuel control without any HC issues. Also Jorgen tells me that this engine needs a lot of spark energy so keeping the distributor is the best bet.
As for running a boost tube, I tend to use copper brake pipe for the long run through the engine bay and fire wall, and shorter lengths of silicone tube to connect the manifold and the VEMS to the brake pipe.
other than running tube from manifold to ecu what else is involved in setting up map
I'm not sure what you mean, do you mean the Manifold Air Pressure map or the fuel and ignition table maps?
sorry rob keep forgetting that there is more than one meaning for map
but i meant manifold air pressure sensor is it a case of connecting a tube to the ecu or is there any aditional wiring etc needed to make it work before configuration is started
The MAP sensor is built-in so all you need to do is run a tube to the VEMS.
so to make vems work sensor wise i need inlet air temp/throttle position/hall/coolant tempx2 (extra1 if i want to convert to electric cooling fan)
does that sound right or have i missed something
cheers
You have PM mate.
hi rob the loom mentioned in your email does it come labeled up for correct sensor wiring etc does it come needing cutting to size and plugs fitting also will there be some wires left over once loom is connected
i have been reading through the instalation instructions and it states that vems is available with 5 different ignition channel outputs as i will be using a single coil i was wondering what would be the best option for my set up
cheers
It has 8 outputs that can be setup as either 5v (logic) level control, IGBTs for direct coil drive, and there are four stepper motor drivers for higher current external igniters.
The loom has a whole load of connectors:
(http://www.vems.hu/download/harness/V3Harness/v3harness_0009_m.jpg)
You will need to cut some of it to size but in general its pretty sorted.
The schematics are here:
http://www.vems.hu/download/harness/V3Harness/2007-06-23/
Its the same basis for the schematics I've done here:
http://www.vems.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=398.0
on the schematics you have done
the sr20 one upto the cop part i take it this stands for all cars except different cas types
also as i am using single coil from pin 35 does vems come already set for this or does it have to be ordered with pin 35 set for a coil drive
cheers
We can work out a wiring schematic specifically for your engine, I'm close to finishing off the Toyota 1JZ and 2JZ engines, if you are driving the coil directly then you'll need at least one IGBT, I'd go for a 6 IGBT setup first, as that would give you the option to go to COP or CNP later on.
Rob
so the coil doesnt have to be run from pin 35 it can be run from any of the ignition pins that are set for igbt is this right
a schematic for my engine would be excellent
cheers
Thats it in a nutshell, as long as the software and hardware configuration matches up you can use which ever channel you want.
Schematics are do-able, I'll need some information of what's what though :D
let me know what you need
cheers
To be honest I could ask you the same question.
Lets start with the sensors:
TPS.
Coolant.
Air temp.
I'll need the pins and resistance measurements (and rough temperature when measured) to make a start.
Rob
were off to a flying start as i dont have any of the sensors yet but i will be using the ones from the vems site (unsure which tps at moment)
also i will be using the gt101 hall sensor i think that is all i need sensor wise
could you put prices for above sensors up
as for pins i take it you mean what sensor is wired to on ec36 also how do i find resistance measurments
and i nearly forgot egt sensor
cheers
back to the schematics the tps sensor i think i will be using a ford one i will at some point be buying the wb02 kit also using a single coil
what other info do you need
cheers
If a Ford one fits then its all good, they're all pretty much of a muchness +5v in one pin, Gnd at the other and the wiper gives a voltage depending on its position.
The VEMS has the WBO2 controller built-in and the Gauge does not integrate with the ECU, so you dont need anything other than the WBO2 sensor.
cool is that everything you need to be able to do schematics
cheers