VEMS Community Forum

Technical => Ignition => Topic started by: smurfinator on August 17, 2007, 05:12:00 pm

Title: Cam sync/Secondary trigger [was: confused RE: V8 sequential COP outputs]
Post by: smurfinator on August 17, 2007, 05:12:00 pm
Hombres,
I've been running for a year now using dual-out with the COP on my Audi ABZ V8.  I've finally sorted the cam trigger, but cannot find any reference in the wiki of how I am supposed to select my megatune ignition outputs for full COP.  I tried several likely arangements and got no start.

Anybody?  I have firmware 1.0.73 (with manual h[2] format change), 60-2 wheel and now cam sinc...

It seemed quite simple until the car refused to start :\
Title: Re: confused RE: V8 sequential COP outputs
Post by: [email protected] on August 17, 2007, 06:06:04 pm
Okay...

What pins are your coils connected to, and what is your firing pattern?
What secondary trigger config value are you using?

Rob
Title: Re: confused RE: V8 sequential COP outputs
Post by: smurfinator on August 17, 2007, 08:08:43 pm
Okay...

What pins are your coils connected to, and what is your firing pattern?
What secondary trigger config value are you using?

Rob

coils are wired as A-H = 1-8
firing order is 1-5-4-8-6-3-7-2
(http://www.showyourmedia.com/files/1187377549.JPG)

My dual out configuration looks like this (running fine)

(http://www.showyourmedia.com/files/1187377695.JPG)

Thanks for any info!
Ben
Title: Re: confused RE: V8 sequential COP outputs
Post by: [email protected] on August 18, 2007, 10:28:23 am
First we need to establish that the secondart trigger works.  If you're able to run with dual out and secondary trigger enabled its safe to assume so.

Assuming that the coils are wired like this:
Coil 1 to EC36-pin35
Coil 2 to EC36-pin33
Coil 3 to EC36-pin34
Coil 4 to EC36-pin36
Coil 5 to EC36-pin11
Coil 6 to EC36-pin12
Coil 7 to EC36-pin24
Coil 8 to EC36-pin10

With a firing order of: 1-5-4-8-6-3-7-2 give a firing order of:
0 - EC36-pin33
1 - EC36-pin24
2 - EC36-pin34
3 - EC36-pin12
4 - EC36-pin10
5 - EC36-pin36
6 - EC36-pin11
7 - EC36-pin35
Title: Re: confused RE: V8 sequential COP outputs
Post by: smurfinator on August 18, 2007, 05:04:48 pm
phooey, that didn't work.  It coughs a bit but then floods and does nothing.  How can I check if the cam trigger is working?  I have double checked all wiring.


I tried enabling cam sync with dual fire and the car won't start so I assume there is something awry.  I have never been able to find info in the wiki on this subject in any depth, so I'm a bit in the dark.

I'm using Andy Mills cam sync settings (ABZ esprit), but he may have other settings which conflict (?).  Can't say as he has not replied to my latest email yet.

How do I relate my cam sync settings to the static timing from my 60-2 wheel?


Here are my other ignition settings...
(http://www.showyourmedia.com/files/1187452929.JPG)

(http://www.showyourmedia.com/files/1187453022.JPG)

Thanks!
Title: Re: confused RE: V8 sequential COP outputs
Post by: [email protected] on August 18, 2007, 07:40:29 pm
Are you getting an RPM reading when its cranking?

Try disconnecting the second sensor to see if the RPM stops reading.
Title: Re: confused RE: V8 sequential COP outputs
Post by: hilly on August 20, 2007, 09:31:56 am
I'll try and get my settings to you tonight as I have left my laptop at home.

I am however running V1.0.53, but I guess that shouldn't be a problem except for the h[2] format.

Hilly
Title: Re: confused RE: V8 sequential COP outputs
Post by: [email protected] on August 20, 2007, 10:13:50 am
No the h[2] format is 1.0.73 on, theres a lot of cars running fine on 1.0.53

It should work with dual out and cam sync.

If you are terminal savvy you can see your wheel count with
Manmlp02 and mll a few times, theres some glyphs there which will count up, post what you see and I'll dig out more info.

Part of the reason that theres not much human readable information about the secondary trigger is that aside from the Nissan's I've never needed to use it, I've never had a problem with getting a car to idle and give good results on anything other than wasted spark and sequential injection using only the missing tooth.
The trick to sequential injection is to fire the injector at its cylinder's TDC, without the cam sync you will never know which stroke the cylinder will be on, but at TDC it will be either on its ignition stroke or its exhaust stroke, either of which give you a closed hot valve to inject the fuel onto.
Title: Re: confused RE: V8 sequential COP outputs
Post by: hilly on August 21, 2007, 10:28:23 am
OK, here is the spark order I am using on my ABZ

(http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h286/s3esprit/sparkorder.jpg)

cylinder 1 = EC36 pin 35
cylinder 2 = EC36 pin 10
cylinder 3 = EC36 pin 12
cylinder 4 = EC36 pin 34
cylinder 5 = EC36 pin 33
cylinder 6 = EC36 pin 11
cylinder 7 = EC36 pin 24
cylinder 8 = EC36 pin 36

This gives the required firing order of  1-5-4-8-6-3-7-2

Now this looks completely wrong as it goes h[2]0 - h[2]7 - h[2]6 - h[2]5 - h[2]4 - h[2]3 - h[2]2 - h[2]1 which kinda doesn't make any sense what so ever (it didn't to me when I first started typing it out and I had to scratch my head a bit to figure it out again) until you understand how the cam sync works.

The h[2] numbers are counted backward, ie 76543210, easy so far, what the cam sync input does is as soon as it sees a trigger it resets the h[2] counter back to zero and then continues counting backwards, it is that simple. As the trigger tooth on the ABZ cam sensor is right before cylinder 1 TDC the h[2] counter is at 0 when cylinder 1 needs to fire, hence the odd order.
For any other engine with a sensible cam sync it would be totally different.

It is defo right as it runs perfect on my ABZ.
It took me a ages to get this right as it is so odd-ball, luckily I had the VEMS running on a bench with a crank trigger/cam wheel simulator and oscilloscope (see my blog) to get the order right before trying to get it running on the engine.
If you try to use a sensible h[2] order it won't work.

Hope I have explained this right, if not let me know and I'll have another go.

Hilly

Title: Re: confused RE: V8 sequential COP outputs
Post by: [email protected] on August 21, 2007, 11:04:01 am
Nice one.  So it looked like the cam sync was the bad boy there then?

FWIW we have a signal generator program that generates wav files that allow you to test your setup using your PC/Laptop's sound card.  It works well with the VEMS test light (2x8 LEDs) connected to an EC36 connector.
Title: Re: confused RE: V8 sequential COP outputs
Post by: hilly on August 21, 2007, 11:24:18 am
Cam sync details are pretty light on the Wiki (in fact I hate it as searching for info is such a pain) as most go for wasted spark, so it took me a while to get the spark outputs right.

The cam trigger on the ABZ is a complicated multi tooth affair to allow it to get sync within one 1 rev. I just cut off all but 1 tooth to allow VEMS to be able to decode it.
I was then stuck with the tooth position, which was fine once I got my head around the h[2] order.

I used a PIC micro for the simulator as I could make it do a bunch of other stuff as well as test the triggers (such as testing the tacho output accuracy etc), but I'll have to have a look at the soundcard jobbie, could be useful.

Hilly
Title: Re: confused RE: V8 sequential COP outputs
Post by: [email protected] on August 21, 2007, 11:29:14 am
Yep, cam sync details are light on the Wiki, but we're getting information here, which hopefully people will find useful.
Title: Re: Cam sync/Secondary trigger [was: confused RE: V8 sequential COP outputs]
Post by: smurfinator on August 22, 2007, 05:25:51 pm
Right, I suspected with our oddly modified cam trigger bells, we'd be in uncharted territory.  Where would we be without you boffins and your 'scopes  :P

Will report - thanks again, Andy and Rob for the extra time and effort.

Ben

...now, enough of this technical rubbish - I WANT TWIN TURBOS AND 1000 HORSEPOWER!
Can I just upload some new firmware and have the turbos appear?
Title: didn't work
Post by: smurfinator on August 22, 2007, 05:36:21 pm
well, drat there was some popping and backfiring but no running.  I think I really need your whole .msq file to see how my main trigger relates to yours.  Something is not quite kosher...


Ben
Title: Re: Cam sync/Secondary trigger [was: confused RE: V8 sequential COP outputs]
Post by: [email protected] on August 22, 2007, 06:39:37 pm
Use configs and tables downloaded using the download-config.bat file, its the only way to be 100% sure.

Then I can generate the config and tables and run it on my test setup here.

While you're waiting are you still running on dual out?

Have you tried disconnecting all coils and pulling the plugs out except for cylinder 1, then getting cylinder 1 to fire consistantly when cranking?  (Pull the fuel pump fuse or relay out). If you get this sorted add one cylinder at a time.

Rob
Title: Re: Cam sync/Secondary trigger [was: confused RE: V8 sequential COP outputs]
Post by: irishtwincam on August 23, 2007, 09:29:06 am
Ignition outputs are traversed in reverse order?
Doestn this mean the CU will spark last to first on this list?
Is this the problem?



cylinder 1 = EC36 pin 35
cylinder 2 = EC36 pin 10
cylinder 3 = EC36 pin 12
cylinder 4 = EC36 pin 34
cylinder 5 = EC36 pin 33
cylinder 6 = EC36 pin 11
cylinder 7 = EC36 pin 24
cylinder 8 = EC36 pin 36

This gives the required firing order of  1-5-4-8-6-3-7-2
Title: Re: Cam sync/Secondary trigger [was: confused RE: V8 sequential COP outputs]
Post by: hilly on August 23, 2007, 12:53:01 pm
I'll email over the msq tonight when I get home.

Hilly
Title: Re: Cam sync/Secondary trigger [was: confused RE: V8 sequential COP outputs]
Post by: [email protected] on August 23, 2007, 01:17:35 pm
Ignition outputs are traversed in reverse order?
Doestn this mean the CU will spark last to first on this list?
Is this the problem?



cylinder 1 = EC36 pin 35
cylinder 2 = EC36 pin 10
cylinder 3 = EC36 pin 12
cylinder 4 = EC36 pin 34
cylinder 5 = EC36 pin 33
cylinder 6 = EC36 pin 11
cylinder 7 = EC36 pin 24
cylinder 8 = EC36 pin 36

This gives the required firing order of  1-5-4-8-6-3-7-2

We can configure VEMS to fire any of the ignition pins in any order.  And when you consider that its possible to connect the coils to any pin things can get a little complicated.  So I like to make one thing constant: coil number = cylinder number.

coil 0 -> EC36-pin35 connected to cylinder 1
coil 1 -> EC36-pin33 connected to cylinder 2
coil 2 -> EC36-pin34 connected to cylinder 3
coil 3 -> EC36-pin36 connected to cylinder 4
coil 4 -> EC36-pin11 connected to cylinder 5
coil 5 -> EC36-pin12 connected to cylinder 6
coil 6 -> EC36-pin24 connected to cylinder 7
coil 7 -> EC36-pin10 connected to cylinder 8
Once I've done this I know that I can fire cylinder 1 by selecting 0 in the software, and would set h[2] up as:
1, 6, 3, 5, 7, 3, 4, 0

Other people (we'll refer to them as perverts) like to connect up their coils in firing order:
coil 0 -> EC36-pin35 connected to cylinder 1
coil 1 -> EC36-pin33 connected to cylinder 5
coil 2 -> EC36-pin34 connected to cylinder 4
coil 3 -> EC36-pin36 connected to cylinder 8
coil 4 -> EC36-pin11 connected to cylinder 6
coil 5 -> EC36-pin12 connected to cylinder 3
coil 6 -> EC36-pin24 connected to cylinder 7
coil 7 -> EC36-pin10 connected to cylinder 2

And then you put the firing order in h[2] as:
7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0

The reason I choose the former rather than the latter is that I like to keep the hardware connections in a logical order and mess with the software setup, its easier to chase software setup issues that mess around trying to figure which wire went where in the footwell of a car.
Title: Re: Cam sync/Secondary trigger [was: confused RE: V8 sequential COP outputs]
Post by: hilly on August 23, 2007, 02:33:46 pm
We can configure VEMS to fire any of the ignition pins in any order.  And when you consider that its possible to connect the coils to any pin things can get a little complicated.  So I like to make one thing constant: coil number = cylinder number.

coil 0 -> EC36-pin35 connected to cylinder 1
coil 1 -> EC36-pin33 connected to cylinder 2
coil 2 -> EC36-pin34 connected to cylinder 3
coil 3 -> EC36-pin36 connected to cylinder 4
coil 4 -> EC36-pin11 connected to cylinder 5
coil 5 -> EC36-pin12 connected to cylinder 6
coil 6 -> EC36-pin24 connected to cylinder 7
coil 7 -> EC36-pin10 connected to cylinder 8
Once I've done this I know that I can fire cylinder 1 by selecting 0 in the software, and would set h[2] up as:
1, 6, 3, 5, 7, 3, 4, 0

Other people (we'll refer to them as perverts) like to connect up their coils in firing order:
coil 0 -> EC36-pin35 connected to cylinder 1
coil 1 -> EC36-pin33 connected to cylinder 5
coil 2 -> EC36-pin34 connected to cylinder 4
coil 3 -> EC36-pin36 connected to cylinder 8
coil 4 -> EC36-pin11 connected to cylinder 6
coil 5 -> EC36-pin12 connected to cylinder 3
coil 6 -> EC36-pin24 connected to cylinder 7
coil 7 -> EC36-pin10 connected to cylinder 2

And then you put the firing order in h[2] as:
7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0

The reason I choose the former rather than the latter is that I like to keep the hardware connections in a logical order and mess with the software setup, its easier to chase software setup issues that mess around trying to figure which wire went where in the footwell of a car.

Opps, I am a deviant............................
Title: Re: Cam sync/Secondary trigger [was: confused RE: V8 sequential COP outputs]
Post by: dnb on August 24, 2007, 05:25:43 pm
At least you didn't connect them up in random order. ;)
Title: Re: Cam sync/Secondary trigger [was: confused RE: V8 sequential COP outputs]
Post by: hilly on August 24, 2007, 07:00:34 pm
Bloody hell this is confusing.............. and mine works!!!!!!!

I have just had another look at it and I have infact connected it up in a non-"perverted" way, or have I, ahhhhhhh!!!

I think all the ignition output confusion stems from how the stuff is labelled within MegaTune.
Some stuff is numbered plainly (coil1, coil 2, coil3.......coil8), some in digital format (ie 1=0, 2=1, 3=2 .....8=7) and it is all mixed together.
If the [h]2 order stayed as it is [0:7] and the ign outputs lettered [A:H] it would possibly make more sense when you looked at it on screen, I think.................
What would also make it a bit more obvious is an arrow on the ignition output table showing which way VEMS counts through the channels.

Just a thought.

Hilly
Title: Re: Cam sync/Secondary trigger [was: confused RE: V8 sequential COP outputs]
Post by: [email protected] on August 24, 2007, 07:23:35 pm
The problem with the setup is caused by the system's versatility.  You can use the coil outputs, or the stepper outputs to drive the ignition, in any pattern you choose.  To be fair MegaTune Ignition Outputs do specify the Pin number in the drop downs.
When we finally get our software sorted it should be easier for people to understand.
Title: Re: Cam sync/Secondary trigger [was: confused RE: V8 sequential COP outputs]
Post by: hilly on August 24, 2007, 07:57:10 pm
The problem with the setup is caused by the system's versatility.  You can use the coil outputs, or the stepper outputs to drive the ignition, in any pattern you choose.  To be fair MegaTune Ignition Outputs do specify the Pin number in the drop downs.
When we finally get our software sorted it should be easier for people to understand.


Indeed

I am not having a go at MegaTune as I think it is a brilliant bit of software, but it is confusing when you look at it as there so many similar looking numbers meaning different things.

Having spent the last hour looking at my .xls file which I generated when I wired up my VEMS and a photo of the VEMS, I have now realised that what is on that .xls isn't what I have wired up!!!!
I must have changed it for some reason when assembling the ECU and forgot to update the spreadsheet, D'oh!!!!
So that list of cylinder vs pin number I posted earlier is wrong, it should be :-

cylinder 1 = EC36 pin 35
cylinder 2 = EC36 pin 33
cylinder 3 = EC36 pin 34
cylinder 4 = EC36 pin 36
cylinder 5 = EC36 pin 11
cylinder 6 = EC36 pin 12
cylinder 7 = EC36 pin 24
cylinder 8 = EC36 pin 10

Now it all makes sense..........

It just goes to show kids, you should keep good upto date records of your wiring.......... :)

Hilly
Title: Re: Cam sync/Secondary trigger [was: confused RE: V8 sequential COP outputs]
Post by: PeepPaadam on August 25, 2007, 01:40:23 pm
As for Audi V8 I installed VEMS & COP (1.8T passive coils) onto S6 V8 engine (auditrigger) but added 3 more pins to one reference pin on the flywheel and used cam sync. Car didn't start until I rotated the firing sequence on ign-outputs.
If anyone's interested I have config+tables also.
Title: Re: Cam sync/Secondary trigger [was: confused RE: V8 sequential COP outputs]
Post by: Jorgen on February 26, 2008, 02:22:09 am
Start by removing the connectors from the injectors when you want to try something like this. You really need to fully index the engine. Make marks for all cylinders on the driver side (Passenger side for UK.) cam pulley and use a strobe light when cranking the engine. (For those who don't know the ABZ: It's much simpler to remove the driver side cam belt cover.) Do this for each cylinder, MAKE SURE TO UNPLUG THE PRIMARY OF ALL COILS EXCEPT FOR THE ONE YOU STROBE. THIS IS NOT THE TIME FOR FIREWORKS.

You also need to be aware that the early and late ABZ engines have different cam sync wheels, the early ones work, the late ones doesn't! So you need the cup from a '95-'96, these only have one slot. The late model trigger will only make the ECU very confused. The late model cup can be modified to work, just remove most of it so you only have one vane.

Jörgen Karlsson
Gothenburg
Title: Re: Cam sync/Secondary trigger [was: confused RE: V8 sequential COP outputs]
Post by: MTRacing on April 29, 2009, 11:53:58 pm
PeepPaadam,

I'm working on a Chevrolet V-8 with COP with seq. injection.  Any chance that you can post your config and tables.txt to allow something to build from? I'm running 1.0.73.

Let me know.

Thanks!

Mike




Title: Re: Cam sync/Secondary trigger [was: confused RE: V8 sequential COP outputs]
Post by: josh-stateside on February 15, 2010, 08:44:16 am
I'm going to add to this if folks don't mind.

The 12v v6 audi engines have a single window cam sync wheel vs the majority of the 4.2L 32v COP engines which have multiple windows.   It should be a direct swap.  I can double check this at some point since I have both setups.