VEMS Community Forum
VEMS => Configuration => Topic started by: dnb on February 01, 2008, 04:38:22 pm
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I have just been sent a datalog and there's something wierd going on.
The ego correction parameters are apparently set correctly in the MSQ - ego correction should be active in all of the VE table except for warmup and 90% to 100% throttle.
The ego flag is never set in the datalog, and GammaE (ego correction applied for that sample) is always stuck at 100 for the whole recording.
There is data in the log file from the lambda sensor and I believe the readings given are probably sensible - it isn't stuck at 0.6 or anything silly.
I've had something similar happen to me - ego correction disabled itself after an overrun fuel cut event and didn't turn on until after the idle flag was cleared, but this doesn't appear to be the problem here. (I never did get to the bottom of it - the car just stopped doing it)
What have I missed?
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Could it be that you reached max limit of change? I think in that case it just ignores EGO correction.
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No, Gego stays at 100. If it were limiting, then Gego would be 100 +/- the appropriate limit.
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It would be much easier to think this, if that .msq file or even that lambda and related settings are in sight.
I had my old 1.0.53 version bugged so that it turned egoC off when pedal was fully lifted after deceleration.
Small blip in throttle turned it on again. But obviously this isn´t your problem.
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I had that same bug! I'll sort out the MSQ.
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Dave whats the update on this mate?
do you still need to see my ecu?
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No sign of a config problem at all - most of your settings in this area are the same as mine!
Looks like it's back to the age old practice of swapping bits out until the problem either goes away or changes into something else... :(
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swapping bits?
as in on the board mate?
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Not yet!!!! I'll start with a whole ECU first.
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ahh ok mate :D
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Just an update on this,
sent dnb some of my logs from last year, and it also shows the same problem, no correction all though its turned on,
any ideas Rob, Jorgen?
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I'm pretty sure it's a strange config issue. The sort which doesn't show up in Megatune, like the one where my dual fire coils decided to only fire one half the time.
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ok David i'll leave it to you then mate.
we will try that config you was on about first.
oh the new injectors are now fitted mate, just need to fit the diode now, but the sun went down too quick and the garage temp dropped rapidly to -2 that was enough for me then,
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one thing i forgot to say David,
you know you turned i think hot start prime off,
the pump still primes weather jot or cold, and not matter what you set the duration time to it stays at what ever its priming at,
i turned it down to 0.1 and it still primed for around 3-4 secs,
not sure if this will help find the fault mate.
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Hi Tony,
That the priming pulse for the injectors (Settings->Priming, Cranking, Afterstart) the fuel pump is Extras->Fan/ Waterpump/ FuelPump and you definately want that to prime when the ignition comes on.
Rob
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ta mate i was getting meself a bit confussed :D
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right i'm off to tony's tomorrow morning to have a look at this ego problem, and to fit the diode.
Tony's said about reflashing the ecu. do you have the files tony???
also any pointers on the ego thing wiring wise and setting wise?
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Right, not reflashed the ecu as we want to make sure the config file is right first,
David or anyone not sure if you can see a problem within it,
http://www.v-8.org.uk/zipfiles/config.txt (http://www.v-8.org.uk/zipfiles/config.txt)
on another note:
added the diode today and fired the ole gal up on the new 440cc injectors,
man she does arf rev a lot quicker and crisper now.
just need to sort a few things out so i can run you a datalog off Dave,
the injector openings etc can't be changed until you have looked at the datalog yeah Dave?
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i just started to have this problem =(
was working fine forever, but then this weekend i set my correction values to zero.. after some tuning i set them back - but no correction is happening.
this was such a great feature! hopefully its something stupid
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What firmware version are you running? I'll see if this can be replicated. It might point towards an answer for you both.
Rob
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that would be handy if it is something that can be corrected,
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Just looking through published configs and it seems that Tony has:
ego_conf=06
and most of the published ones have:
ego_conf=07
Which is the only significance that I can see.
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i'll check mine after work. i have a good copy of my config before this weekend.
i'm running firmware 1.1.26
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would that stop my ego from working Rob?
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It could be the thing causing the problem, and wont hurt to try it.
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just edit the saved config then upload it back to the ecu yeah?
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how does the rest of the config compare mate?
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yeah, save, generate and upload.
I didnt dig much deeper than the ego stuff in the config, theres so much in there to be getting on with!
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no worries mate.
i.ll do that later this week,
why do you have to use generate mate???
cant you just edit the downloaded config, save it then use the upload-config bat? to upload it back to the ecu?
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The config is designed to be close to human editable as possible, but to upload it to the unit it needs to be made VEMS readable which is what the generate-config does, it turns the likes of:
primep=00
primep_temp_scaling=00
cwl=28
cwh=14
cranking_thres=03
awev=41
awev_temp_scaling=0F
awec=C0
to
Mantt
g00c00
g01c00
g02c96
g03c5A
g04c05
g05c41
g06c0F
g07cC0
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ah rite no probs mate,.
i gather the laptop needs to be conected to the ecu and powered up before you do the generate feature yeah?
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No you can generate configs and tables off line.
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ah mine came up error when i tried that :(
came up on the screen load s of warinings that could not be found,
and then said do not use config.mtt think that what it said
i'll try again now
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http://www.v-8.org.uk/ecu/config.zip
i have the config that mine comes up with here Rob/anyone.
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HELP!,
god knows how,
but i have managed to click on generate-config 12x12 with WB defaults,
and now it says this below if you click the correct generate-config 12x12 feature:
warning: table t has less than 8 items
Geometry check failed, reported the error:
table 1 contains too many rows, it should have no more than table k has columns.
MakeConfig v0.5<c>2005 VEMS Project. Rob Humpris.
config.mtt generated with 0 errors and 0 warnings.
press any key to continue...
what have i done :( and how can we get it back to the original setup????
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You've done nothing wrong and nothings broken, all that this means is that you have got a table thats causing a problem.
The generate-config takes the config.txt and tables.txt and converts them to config.mtt and tables.mtt the originals are undamaged.
What version of software do you have running on the VEMS on your car?
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nt sure off hand mate,
i think we loaded 1.0.73
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could you email me the config.txt and tables.txt.
The firmware version is shown in the top bar of MegaTune when its running.
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all mine says is megatune 2.25
that the one?
the config and tables .txt files are in the config folder yeah Rob?
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if so, the config.txt file is ok,
but the tables one is a blank,
i have found some table.txt that you have done when you were testing the VEMS at your place,
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right renamed the tables file that was stored on when you had the ecu mate,
to tables,
then did the gen config 12x12 and no errors came up thsi time,#
that sound ok?
or you want me to mail the config and tables one over to double check?
when you do the config upload .bat is it the config and tables .mtt files that it uploads? if so you want them too?
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Yes, mail them here and I'll check them over.
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mail sent mate,
anything else you need?
all this just to change one value from 6 to 7 :D
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Rob just editted the config,
with the value ego_conf from 06 to 07 and now
when you run gen conf, it does all the errors again,
load the original that i saved as a copy and it's fine,
any ideas mate?
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just opened the config i edited, and all the values are bunched up in a continuous line,
im going through and seperating it as it was originally listed, to see if that works,
will report back after moving the values to match the copied version, BUT with the ego conf changed,
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right, coming up with this now Rob,
WARNING: giac_ign_slope in config.txt not found in global.h
WARNING: did not find a value for iac_ign_slope in config.txt
config.mtt generated with 0 errors and 2 warnings,
BUT if i go back to using the config with the ego_conf set at 06 again its fine, any clues?
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found it looking at what i just posted was a type error,
i must of put the letter g in front by accident,
now the modded config with the ego_conf value changed to 07 has generated fine will upload to ecu tomorrow,
phew, im getting there slowly, :D
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Rob, David,
right uploaded the new config to the ecu, went to start ran like a bag of spanners, (you will see on datalog)
uploaded the .msq again and ran good again,
downloaded config to make sure the values were the same still and they were,
did a datalog and it looks like its still not working on the fuel correction side of things, and ego_conf is now at 07,
http://www.v-8.org.uk/zipfiles/log14_03_08.zip
towards the end of the log is where i started giving it death if you want to check the WOT fueling,
also there is a log when on nitrous i did also today for you,
did a practise 1/4 mile run,
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That makes no sense...
Especially as uploading the msq and downloading the config showed no difference between the one you generated and uploaded.
But I dont doubt what you're saying, just can't figure out why ???
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Rob my ego settings,
settings>ego settings
lean limit is 19%
rich limit 5%
step size 1%
speed limit(or PID kp) 64
engine cycles before changing correction 1
they correct?
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They're good settings.
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Cheers Dave,
Rob,
i know your a busy person,
BUT is there any progress with help from the wiki regarding this ego fault???
as i want to get this sorted as its not worked from day one by the looks of it,
once its sorted i can then move onto sorting out going wasted spark, but want to complete one thing (ego) before starting to do the ignition
cheers mate,
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The general consensus from the team is that there are bigger problems with all those trigger errors that need to be cured before the EGO correction is worried about.
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did they give any clues to help me what could be causing them high triggers?
and did they have any ideas what is causing the ego fault too?
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Disable all acceleration enrichment, then give the EGO correction a try.
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anyone localish to me that would like to try my ecu to see if they get these ferkin spikes and ego problem on there car?
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in settings>primary trigger settings,
there is an advanced filter, you recon it may help these spikes if it was turned on?
just a thought?
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Those trigger filters are designed to cope with strange happenings with VR triggers Hall is too clean a signal for them to have much effect. Those spikes tend to come from a loose connection in power, ground or some other area injecting noise into the ECU.
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its defo not a ground mate as you checked the loom :D
and it is fixed to the passengers head via a ring terminal on the o/e ecu earth point,
i will check the relays, fuse box and fusebox terminals this week to see if that is all ok, failing that im as lost as every one else. :'(
one thing that is confusing, on the log the spikes is not on going is it, there is a blip where there are 2 large blips possibly a couple small ones then its fine,
i have noticed though, the spikes are bigger if the laptop is plugged into the cars battery as power,
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I checked continuity of the earths on the loom, but that's only half the story as is written in the User Guide there are plenty of oppotunities for noise to get inejcted into any number of places.
The thing with EGO correction is that its a software feature, the lambda values that the system are reading are sensible, so the VEMS should be correcting. For some reason its not. EGO correction does not work when the engine is in a transient state, so thats why mattias suggested turning off the acceleration enrichment to see if the software starts compensating.
If you set your Acceleration Bins in Settings->Acceleration Enrichments
to 255 (make a note of their original values so that you can reset them after the test).
You will not be able to achive TPS speeds of 255 so the VEMS will never enter into an acceleration state - which means that EGO stays on.
BTW mattias is one of the development team.
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cheers Rob,
i'll try and do this one night this week and test for you,
want me to log it too yeah so the log can be checked for correction?
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hi mattias,
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Log everything :D
Rob
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Log everything :D
Rob
yes master :D :D :D :D :D
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the ecu power pick up point is at a distribution point under the bonnet,
shall i run a fresh cable back to the battery which is in the boot?
not sure if it may help with sorting the spikes etc.
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Wouldnt be a bad bet - do you see a significant voltage drop when cranking?
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never looked mate, to be honest.
BUT i have done most the datalogs from start so it should show in the log,
i'll run a new 6mm cable from the battery to the ecu this weekend then,
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As a matter of course with rear mounted batteries we run a 6mm wire to the ECU, Injectors and Ignition via a relay switched by the ignition switch on the key barrel.
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i have a ignition switched relay from the key that energises the fuel [pump and fan relay, and the main fuse box for the ecu,
the main 12v power for the above comes from the distribution box under the bonnet from the battery via a 6mm cable now,
BUT as previous post i will re run a 6mm cable to the above direct fromt he battery instead now and do away with the under bonnet feed,
that will have to be a job for the weekend,
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here you go Rob.
http://www.v-8.org.uk/zipfiles/log19_03_08.zip
i turned the 4 accel bins to 255
and it still looks as if no ego correction mate,
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Oh arse :(
We're going to have to fall on the gods of mercy and dnb to look at this directly.
Point of interest is the complete lack of resets in that datalog. Which is an ecouraging sign.
Rob
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resets mate?
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The red lines in that other datalog are resets. Didnt see too many obvious spikes either...
Rob
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not done anything different mate except turned the tps bins to 255 as instructed,
not done the battery lead yet :(
thats weird then?
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Well we'll see when you put the accel bins back.
But I doubt it.
Rob
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have put bins back but rain stopped play, will get a log done after i have moved the power lead for the ecu to the battery in the boot,
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right Rob,
managed to get the loom moved to battery, and a datalog, still no ego and yup still spikes,
http://www.v-8.org.uk/zipfiles/log21_03_08.zip
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No resets though.
Small mercies but its something positive.
Those RPM spikes kick unwanted fuel in.
Theres very few places where the lamdba target and actual lambda are particularly different, so its not an awful state of tune...
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the spikes are not uniform or in a pattern,
i jotted down soem info earlier, as i thought a pattern was forming but it was not, most the spikes appear around 50-56kps and around 1-3% tps, but then in that log there is 2 spikes at66 kpa and79 kpa those two are early on in the first minutes and then the other 3 are time lines 226.47, 388.64 and 658.49
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I know every one is going to say no,
but could something with in the ecu be causing these spikes?
you say it could be a software problem causing the non working ego, could this be also doing something to the ecu settings and causing the spikes?
Once David is free i will arange for him to pop over and take a look at the ecu, as i to want this sorted and working as it should be,
will get David to change that chip so the fuel pump can go back on the correct channel,
could that chip be arcing and causing a spike?
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Is the P259 dead then?
Theres so little current there that arcing is unlikely. Its not a good thing to have a dead chip, nor is it a show stopper.
Its a real pain in the arse for us both this, I wish I could pull some magic out the hat and cure these problems.
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when we first set the ecu up rob, Jago and I.
if you remember while on the fone to you it blew a relay, we replaced the relay and the pump would not energise anymore,
you said sounds like something had blown and to move to pin 30 something etc and you told me how to change the pump channel to compensate,
the pump fired up then and was fine,
i too dont like problems, and would like the pump back on its right full channel on the ecu and pin in the connector,
later this year i want to go to ignition too,
thus why i want pump sorted, the spikes sorted and the ego working, so all the probs and faults are sorted before i take on another project,
what could be blown then to stop the pump? and how can we check to see if the p259 is dead?
ta mate.
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Hi,
No expert here so be prepared for me to be wrong...
When P259 goes doesn't it usually pull down the VR too, meaning a leg or the chip has to be removed?
If the chip is still in place could it be upsetting the VR signal?
Cheers,
Gavin :)
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Correct, but Tony is using Hall :(
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Correct, but Tony is using Hall :(
:(
so back to mine, how can i tell if the P259 has died then? any way of testing it???
took car for another run today, i must be getting there with the VE as can get her to spin the tyres 1st, 2nd and 3rd while cruising at around 25-30mph then nail the throttle,
just playing with the WOT settings now to lean them off a bit.
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reason im changing the WOT 100-110kpa settings as the car seems to be lazy when you nail the foot to the floor then picks up and goes,
if you go to 1/2 or 3/4 throttle it dont seem to bad, hardly any lazyness, its only when you nail it to the floor it seems to be a bit lack luster then goes.
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You have a number of potential problems to look at.
It is likely that the P259 died when the relay failed. We have seen it fail before when a cheap relay has been used, cheap relays not only fail often they often cause very strong flyback that can also kill the P259 driver chip. I strongly suggest only using Bosch or Hella relays.
A P259 failure can cause problems for all functions working on the same bus, this includes display, ignition and stepper subsystems. The P259 can also fail without affecting anything but the VR trigger inputs. A broken P259 chip can cause power ground noise to get into the logic ground by shorting the two grounds together inside the chip.
IIRC you trigg the ECU from the tach output on the MSD 6AL box, is that correct?
If that is correct we could look at a problem with this signal. The MSD should be grounded to the battery according to MSD, a bit wierd but that is how they want it. This will of cause the ref point for the tach output to be far from the ref point for the engine management system. A bad connection or a surge of current on the MSD ground lead could possibly cause some noise on the tach output from the MSD. Just guessing here but that is one of the things I would look at. Since you don't run ignition we could fit a small filter on the hall trigger input to remove high frequency noise from this signal. This is much harder when we run ignition from the ECU as a filter will always cause a delay, for injection this is not critical.
There is an other possible problem, we have seen some odd behaviour when the alternator has a high charging voltage. I don't know why I came to think of this now, but if your voltage is higher then specified you should check the voltage quality of the alternator as this indicate a problem with the alternator. Alternators that has a slightly high voltage often have extremely bad voltage quality. Often with very high spikes that will trigg our overvoltage protection. Any voltage under 14.0v is safe but above that is a warning unless the alternator has a 14.4v or higher regulator. If the voltage is stable and without spikes when measuring with a scope it will not cause a problem for our ECU. The overvoltage protection kicks in around 18v, not that many shop chargers have spikes far higher then 18v.
Jörgen Karlsson
Gothenburg, Sweden.
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i use a mallory mal 684 cdi ignition box, similar to the MSD, and yes it has a tach output that the ecu is conected too Jorgen,
you say about the filter, will this be removable? because when i go to ignition the cdi box will be coming out as will be going coil packs with wasted,
If the P259 is not dead what would cause the pump to stop working on the said channel?
or is there some thing else to check?
relays i use ripaults as we use at work, and the ones in the car have been on the efi system now since the VEMS install 2yr ago, and have been fault free, (thank god) (was using bosch as what came in the ready made loom when the relay died and pump stopped)
Im looking at changing the alternator to a higher ampage one,
so will look at getting a scope put on it, have had no said problems with alternator before, pity i never got a log when we first installed the ecu, before the pump went down, cos we could of seen if the spikes were there then too.
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Whats you current suituation regarding needing the car?
I think its at the point where it needs to come back here so I can test what has and has not blown. And work out what needs to be repaired.
Rob
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hi Rob,
as far as i know the car is show and race free for the next 3 weeks,
will check with the club sec, to make sure though, and let you know,
you want just the ecu sent back yeah?
If you give me a rough guide of how long you recon you may need it for and i can juggle things around you mate, if thats ok?
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I can usually get things sorted in a couple of days - if we've shat a big component it might take a few more.
I tend to keeep p259 chips hanging around. ;)
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No probs.
it looks like tomorrows show is the only one until around 3 weeks time,
you want me to put me .msq file on a 3.5 floopy and send to?
also you want to email me the address etc to send it back to mate please,
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YHPM
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Jorgen.
I understand Rob has talked to you regarding the possible split inductor in my vems,:
would this cause the said spikes we are seeing?
and/or what else would it upset within the ecu,
it's being sent back to Rob this week, but curious to find out what it would upset within the ecu.
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well the ecu is now speeding its way back to Rob.
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Well the ecu has been repaired, ;D
Not sure 100% what was wrong, but Rob has replaced a few things on the board, :o :o
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The datalog before the repair looked like this:
http://www.vems.co.uk/VEMSInstalls/TonyCooper/TC1.xls
And after repair and reconfiguration:
http://www.vems.co.uk/VEMSInstalls/TonyCooper/TC3.xls
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Rob,
one thing i have noticed with the logs have you?
or am i pissing up a wall ::)
before the rpm peaking at 25550 which is what i had this end,
then after 5000 max,
could we of solved the ferkin spiking fault at last as well as the ego???
thanks again for this mate,
can i put the alternator and bits back in the car now as it may not of been the cars fault after all :D :D
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;D ;D ive got ego ive got ego ive got ego ;D ;D
not sure if you are aware rob the ego is working mate ;) ;D :D
in the lambda control mate the rich and lean settings,(10% your settings) is that how high or low the lambda will go before the ecu does correction?
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just has a quick peep at the settings mate,
did you reset my temp table? as im using the rover temp switch mate,
and dont look like what i thought they were before the ecu was sent away mate.
and in settings->EGO(lambda) control:
ego nbo2 connected is set to disable
ego nbo2 pid config is set to enabled
does that matter?
EDITED>>>>>
and the datalog to go with tonights start up,
www.v-8.org.uk/zipfiles/log03_04_08.zip
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Didnt touch those temp settings as far as I can remember.
As for the NBO2 section - if its disabled the other setting is ignored.
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cheers Rob,
i'll see if i still have the old .msq i can look at,
also in the lambda control mate the rich and lean settings,(10% your settings) is that how high or low the lambda will go before the ecu does correction?
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They are to limit the maximum % of adjustment. The idea is that you should be within 10% of the target mapping by hand (in reality you should be within 2% to 5%).
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cheers mate,
once the throttle cable arrives i'll take her for a run and do a log to see how she is setup wise on the VE and pop it on here,
cheers for your help Rob,
next will be ignition mate :D
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Cable arrived,
took for a run, still have them spikes now and then so need to look into that a bit more,
Rob, could the tach output on the cdi be playing up?
can i connect to the -neg side the coil instead of the cdi box to see if we still get any spikes?
or wont it work with my settings?
here is todays datalog along with .msq
www.v-8.org.uk/zipfiles/log04_04_08.zip
now can some one help with tuning the lambda readings now please, :D :D
any one got a program for this?
i did kangaroo while on light throttle and i think the engine actual lambda went real lean, think it was 4% throt around 2kish rpm towards end log
and forgot to say the car ran defo smoother Rob,
so the repairs have done some good mate, thanks. ;)
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I wouldn't connect anything to the side thats driven by the CDi, its likely to kick out huge voltages.
Theres no substitute for getting the fuel mapped properly, EGO will only do so much.
http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=TuningSession%2FClosedloopTuning
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Cheers for that Rob,
Rob/anyone in the previous post i made there is a zip file and in there is also my.msq,
how does the lambda table look in my .msq?
as wernt to sure what it should be at certain points etc, and as the ego was not working i dont think it followed the table any way.
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To be honest I think you fuel is a long way out - more than the moderate trimming that the EGO provides can or should cope with.
The fuel map needs to be addressed from the ground-up, you've changed the inlet and the injectors, as this flows more air and increases VE at various points the whole map needs to be addressed.
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ah ok mate,
all i have changed is the injectors,
the intake is as was when the vems was first fitted :D
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I thought you'd put on a magic manifold at the same time. No worries
In theory all that you have needed to do would be to change the required fuel value to suit the new injector sizes and then done some cleaning up on the map to get it all ship shape. I'm not sure how the map could have got to the state that its in now, was there a map that the car ran better with that you can return to? Not the msq, just the fuel and lambda tables.
Rob
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Not really mate,
David (dnb) has been working on my fuelling and lambda, but he wanted to see what was happening with the ego,
now its working he said last night he could have another go at setting her up again now.
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Well if its in David's hands we can relax and see what magic he will produce ;D
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he has done miracles with her so far,
he said he can now try and iron her out a bit more,
i have asked him if he could look at my lambda table to see if it looks right, no doubt if it is not he will correct it just like the VE table he did,
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mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
this is interesting,
i have done nothing to the car over night,
all i have done is turned the ignition filter to enabled settings> primary trigger
and i have no spikes on my datalog,
it may work after all with this on Rob.
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Just looked at the log from start to finnish and no ignition spikes with that filter on,
so thats promising,
BUT at around time line 410 and 512 the ego and rpm looks like they are at sea, is this the kangarooing effect i felt? when in traffic at low throttle?
i know the VE is still not right, but i have made small adjustments over night so im heading the right way before DNB takes over,
also at time line 1119.02 the kpa rockets from 69.0 to 2117 then straight back to 69.0 what would cause that as never seen that before on any of my logs from the very begining :(
todays log and .msq:
www.v-8.org.uk/zipfiles/log05_04_08.zip
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did anyone have any clues why the map sensor now has spikes instead of the ignition with the filter on?