Question about 60-2 trigger with camsyns and VR polarity (logs inside)

[ZoLtaR]

Hi there.

I have a question about trigger configuration in my last project. The engine is 2.0L 16V with 60-2 and hall sensor on exhaust cam.
Here is my configuration of primary trigger:



And secondary trigger:



Now I made a trigger log today and I'm little bit confused now.

http://www.ital-performance.pl/temp/vems/trigger_log1.png

http://www.ital-performance.pl/temp/vems/trigger_log2.png

http://www.ital-performance.pl/temp/vems/trigger_log3.png

http://www.ital-performance.pl/temp/vems/trigger_log4.png

It seems that every 360 degree of crank rotation logs says it's "missing tooth:1, cycle = 57" , and every 720 degree when secondary trigger occurs it's "missing tooth:1, cycle = 60"

Now why it is like that?
1) Bad VR sensor polarity?
2) Bad primary trigger configuration?

According to mattias post in other topic:
"In the case of missing-tooth, the cam sync pulse (either rising/falling) must not race with the missing teeth. It can occur any time but not there.  Trigger tooth count is relative to the missing-tooth appearing after the cam sync pulse."
For me it seems that something like that occurs in my case?
What should I do now ?

Links for triggerlog files:
http://www.ital-performance.pl/temp/vems/alfa156.triggerlog
http://www.ital-performance.pl/temp/vems/alfa156_triggerlog.csv

Thanks for help.

[GintsK]

For me seems that your 60-2 has physically wrong polarity. Time gap should be closer to 3. You have 2.5 and next two pulses disturbed.
For camsync just change rising to falling.
For VR 60-2 rising is a must.

Gints

[GintsK]

Have you possibility to check VR signal with a scope?

[ZoLtaR]

Thanks for fast reply. Unfortunately I have no possibility to check it with scope now 

According to screenshots below primary trigger is VR and is set to rising as we can see, and camsync is also set to falling as you suggested. So this settings are correct?
Now, if I understand correctly, hall signal from cam occurs when primary VR is reading missing tooths? And this isn't ok?

I can change VR polarity and make some other logs then. But I cannot change hall signal position that is physically in conjunction with VR signal and in this case it will always occur that way (hall signal occurs during missingtooth)?

Is it possible to work this way when VR polarity will be ok ?

[mattias]

Try changing falling to rising edge on the cam sync, that might move the signal enough to not race with the missing teeth, it depends on how wide the tooth is on the exhaust cam.

The trigger log says some stupid things with cam sync, that will be fixed some time in the future.

[ZoLtaR]

Ok, I will try this. But VR polarity of the crank sensor is 100% wrong and I have to swap the wires?

[mattias]

Yep, it's likely the VR needs a polarity change.

[ZoLtaR]

Ok, I made some experiments  changed VR polarity and make two logs with camsync falling and rising.

Version 1)
60-2 primary trigger with camsync falling



Trigger log file http://www.ital-performance.pl/temp/vems/alfa_156_2.0_ts_vr_inverted_camsync_falling.triggerlog

As I can see, changing the VR polarity did the job and 60-2 signal is now ok? It reads missing tooth well without any problem. Secondary trigger (falling) occurs still during missing tooth so it still can't be used.

Version 2)
60-2 primary trigger with camsync rising



Trigger log file http://www.ital-performance.pl/temp/vems/alfa_156_2.0_ts_vr_inverted_camsync_rising.triggerlog

As mattias said, the secondary trigger signal moved about ~8 crank teeth, and now is does not race with missing teeth. Will this be enough to run camsync ?

Now, how to configure it to run fully sequential injection/ignition with that engine ?  Stock firing order is 1-3-4-2.

[mattias]

The last "60-2 primary trigger with camsync rising" is what you should use, looks perfect.


There's a configlet in the primary trigger dialog for setting good defaults for 60-2 with cam sync for a 6 cyl. Check it out, with 4 cyl 60-2 just add "0,90,60,30" as trigger reference teeth.
Strobe the ignition to find out what order to put the cylinders in. Only power the injectors when you are sure about the ignition and trigger settings.

[ZoLtaR]

Thanks mattias!

Now, according to original firing order 1-3-4-2, trigger reference table will be set:

 0 - cylinder 1
90 - cylinder 3
60 - cylinder 4
30 - cylinder 2



Now, injectors are wired in order from 1 to 4
cyl. 1 injector -> pin 7
cyl. 2 injector -> pin 19
cyl. 3 injector -> pin 8
cyl. 4 injector -> pin 20

I read that the best way is to set the injector sequence the same way as ignition sequence to achieve the best results. I mean to inject onto the closed valve of the cylinder that is actually firing.
So then, my firing order is 1-3-4-2 so I set injector group table like this:



And the same for ignition.




Is this correct and have some chance to work? 

[mattias]

The idea is to make the rows of injection and ignition output tables relate to the same cylinder. The cylinder which fires ignition  on row 0, should have its injector on row 0 of the injector output table as well.

Use a strobe light to verify the ignition order, I have no idea if that will work - to little information on the ignition outputs.

[ZoLtaR]

ECU was ordered assembled with 4+4 configuration. So I wired all IGBT outputs with conjunction with cylinder order starting from cylinder 1 that is on the side of timing belt.
So I wired it up in order like below.

EC36Pin34 - cyl.1 COP
EC36Pin36 - cyl.2 COP
EC36Pin24 - cyl.3 COP
EC36Pin10 - cyl.4 COP

[mattias]

You can define output <-> cyl relationships in future VemsTune versions, so this will be easier to get a grip on. For now, just make notes and use the strobe light, you'll be fine.

Use the ignition output test mode to verify correct wiring, make sure to ground the spark plugs properly when you test for spark - the current has to go somewhere, I usually use bare copper wire to create a  proper ground path.

[ZoLtaR]

I already make some ignition output tests and everything is ok. Plugs were grounded with thick copper wires so it's works ok. I am 100% sure about every EC36 pin.

Now about strobe light. Maybe I don't understand everything but I thougth that it's only neccessary for fine tune the TDC after the trigger value. I have original marks on flywheel / gearbox housing to do such an operation so I was planning to connect strobe to cyl. 1 coil and point strobe light to that marks.

Do I have to do it for each cylinder? 

[mattias]

You only need to do it on cyl 1, the engine will never run right if the ignition order is messed up and you have to assume the rest of the cylinders get their spark at the same advance as cyl 1 unless your trigger settings are way off.. (which they aren't).

The strobe is used to first get a clue if cyl 1 is actually even close to igniting at the correct time, the order of the table might be out. It's better to check, than assume you are correct. And yes, it's used for fine tuning later. Best is to use no advance while checking (lock timing to 0 degrees) if you are un-certain of how the strobe works, that way you can't be fooled by 2/4-stroke settings (if the strobe has the ability to delay the strobe light with the set amount of advance to light up TDC instead of actual advance).